Do fishes have feelings?

chunksofpoooo said:
like slipknottin and AFG pointed out, its a response to a stimuli. Namely, a stimuli that is causing tissue damage. Every animal has the instict to escape damage and to survive.
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Ok but what is stimuli? And what makes you follow your instincts? If your schooling from instinct and not fear then what is it that makes you not want to disregard that instinct and go of on your own? there is something inside a creature that only makes him feel comfortable when he's responding to instinct and stimuli in what his brain determines is the correct manor. whatever that is, no matter how basic, is a feeling of some sort, whether the creature comprehends this or not. Even if a creature knows he is in danger if he leaves a pack, what is it that makes it care that he might die when he does so. call it survival instinct yes, but you have to acknowledge that there is some part of a creatures brain that makes it feel the need not to die. to make it scared to die.
 
Stimulus:
something, for example, a drug or an electrical impulse, that causes a physical response in an organism.

Every fish has a nervous system of some sort. In fish certain types of neurons are capable of transmitting a "pain" signal to the brain. In fish, when a ‘painful’ stimulus is detected (generally by a release of chemicals from the cells experiencing pressure or temperature that might be damaging) the information is sent to the central nervous system. When this information reaches the central nervous system, several reflex responses are initiated. The body part that has recieved the "painful" stimulus is moved as far away from the object as it can get. At the same time heart rate increases (gasping and increased gill movement). In some animals, Bees for example, chemicals are released attracting other bees and increasing "agression". My point is that all this is done without any conscious awareness or effort on the part of the animal: an automatic feedback loop (of sorts). The bees have no control over their reaction and subsequent release of chemicals, just like we have no control over our release of adrenaline when we're scared. "Feeling" in fish doesnt occur because fish lack the developed cerebral cortex that other animals have (namely humans). Feeling requires processing by the cerebral cortex that allows the given animal to respond and make a concious decision about the pain. In humans this is generally things like waving your finger after you burn it, or sucking on your thumb after you smash it with a hammer, or putting your burnt finger in some ice. Fish dont have this kind of processing power.
 
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you can boil everything down to chemical reations if you want to but I believe that there's more to it than that. I think it's an overly simplistic view that humans take to justify their perception of themselves as lord and masters over the planet.
 
cloud said:
If your schooling from instinct and not fear then what is it that makes you not want to disregard that instinct and go of on your own?
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The lack of an advanced cerebral cortex; which controls emotions such as curiosity, fear, happiness, etc. If you home-breed a group of tetras and shelter them from any danger or stress they will still school. Even if they've never been introduced to any type of danger they will still know how to school and know what to do if danger is introduced. If they only schooled based on emotions such as fear (of death) then they would not school if kept in a danger-free environment all their lives, and subsequently would not know what to do if a threat was introduced.



cloud said:
you can boil everything down to chemical reations if you want to but I believe that there's more to it than that.
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as do I, just not in fish. Chimps have shown thought process, emotions, and forms of communication. Unlike fish, however, their cerebral cortex is rather advanced. If you can show me a fish that will care for a wounded/sick member of its school, or a fish that would care for a fry of another species, then ill reconsider my arguement.

I dont believe fish have feelings, but like ive said before, thats not going to stop me from caring, appreciating and proctecting the fish i have. Just because they dont have emotions doesnt mean im not going to feel remorse for the fish i catch when i go fishing, and its not going to make me treat them any differently (i.e not caring about their tank conditions, etc)
 
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They play. Yesterday one of my dojo's was following my swordtail female, swimming right beside her mimicking her. She looked a bit annoyed, but he had a smile on his face. And no I'm not smoking anything funny :)
 
I think it boils down to this: Being humans, we have the highest intelligence of all living creatures, but the downside is our 'instinct' is much lower. Animals, being less intelligent, rely on their amazing instincts, to survive...such as when an baby antelope is born, it is walking around in minutes after birth because it must to survive. That's why we see some fish as being intelligent, having the ability to know their owner, feeding time, likes watching TV, swimming with other fish, the need for dither fish, etc.

Romeo.
 
Great thread, made me become a member...

My $0.02

Fish feel pain but don't translate that pain into any meaningful(to us) emotion such as sorrow or grief. Their stress and pain is physical only and they do not have a brain complex enough to make anything out of this pain other than another physical response. Even if they could/do we would not understand it, as we are far removed from the ocean and its true wonders. As far as fish having minds or cognition, as Descarte describes it, we could only hope to understand our's better before hypothesizing about another species(which I did above).

As for the memory ability of fish, I think they have short memories otherwise they wouldn't have to continually assert dominance over one another, they would remember who was boss. Does anyone have fish in their tanks that know and do not forget who is the king of the tank? I don't.
 
roliva said:
I think it boils down to this: Being humans, we have the highest intelligence of all living creatures, but the downside is our 'instinct' is much lower. Animals, being less intelligent, rely on their amazing instincts, to survive...such as when an baby antelope is born, it is walking around in minutes after birth because it must to survive. That's why we see some fish as being intelligent, having the ability to know their owner, feeding time, likes watching TV, swimming with other fish, the need for dither fish, etc.

Romeo.
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Some would argue that it is our impressive instinct that makes us superior. A baby human is fully able to converse with adults by the age of six or seven. "Having" vocabulary skills that would require a full generation to "teach" and reinforce. An entire world of individual humans are able to communicate complex ideas with each other with little or no confusion. Language is surely instinctive and if you don't believe me think of a "Brown house".
 
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