75Gal Goldie tank - high nitrates

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GoldLenny

Senior Member? Do I get a 5% disc.?
One way to slow down the poop rate of goldfish is to feed them more often but not as much with each feeding. Goldfish have very short digestive tracts and almost no stomach at all, so what goes in pretty much comes out the other end rather quickly.

They are BIG fish so they need lots of food which is why they will forage all the time, munch on plants, etc., but I've found that when I feed mine 3-4 smaller meals on the days when I'm home all day, the fish do not have as much visible poop... compared to how some goldfish will have 1"+ long poops coming out after they eat. This will take some experimenting on the fish keepers part as to how much to feed so that the food stays inside of them longer... and thus be processed so the fish get more nutrition from the food... instead of it being forced out the other end.

The fish don't seem to munch on the plants as much when they get feedings more often either so that's a plus. Someone mentioned floating plants and I agree that floating Anacharis will greatly help with reducing nitrates since the Ancharis will grow faster when it's floating since it's up closer to the light, it can get CO2 from the surface air and still suck up nutrients from the water. It's also harder for the fish to munch on the Anacharis when it's floating compared to when it's planted since they can't tug on it as easily... as it just moves with them. My goldfish leave my BIG crypt plant alone completely. I have to trim it back regularly or it grows to the size of a basketball or larger and doesn't leave much room for the fish to swim in the front or back... and that's with a 48" x 18" footprint.

Goldfish keepers pretty much know that the poop is often the same color as whatever they just ate, which further proves that it's not being processed much while inside the fish for a short period of time. I know the fish poop must still have a large amount of nutritional value as I've seen my Mystery Snails munching on it before... after the goldfish pigged out on some blanched Zuchini slices and the poop was pretty yellow when it came out. EWWWWW!!!... but the Mystery Snails didn't seem to mind. LOL
 

platytudes

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I know the fish poop must still have a large amount of nutritional value as I've seen my Mystery Snails munching on it before... after the goldfish pigged out on some blanched Zuchini slices and the poop was pretty yellow when it came out. EWWWWW!!!... but the Mystery Snails didn't seem to mind. LOL
Ugh...I second this. Have seen my Columbian ramshorn do this as well. It's better than the dog snacking in the litterbox I guess :perv:
 

Fancy75

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I'm loving all this information you guys.......I'm going to have to re-read everything and either make notes or print the entire thread for future reference.

Lenny: I'll stop using the salt for sure...the aquarium place told me to use it regularly and told me how much to use.

Platytudes: 100 gallon tank?? I WISH! Did I mention I currently have 6 tanks set up? I don't think my living room floor could handle that kind of weight on top of the other two that are in there. The living room has a 36gal, a 20gal and the 75gal right now and the other 3 tanks are on the second floor.
I read quickly your mention of suggesting I have more filtration on this tank and possibly getting more "flow"....I don't know if I mentioned that my water surface has plenty of breakage and the flow I get from my two Eheims are lots. I have them hooked up so they flow towards the front of the tank and it gently moves the plants that are placed in the center. I don't have much debris in my tank or in my filters and I don't clean a filter if it doesn't need it. I did a water change last night (40%) and checked my filters that I didn't check in 2 weeks ago and they had some gunk in it but not very much, I probably could have left them alone for another week yet but what I did was poor out the water only and refilled them with conditioned water then put my media back in (untouched) and replaced the top white spongey thing (lol) with a new one - rinsed in tank water.
I'm just curious....is it really possible I don't have enough filtering on this tank? I have the Eheim (92gal) and another Eheim (125gal)....
Is my entire problem just being over stocked? It crossed my mind cuz I read once that they should probably have 30gals per fish (to be kind to them and me lol).
I've bought plants before but they died or got eaten so I gave up. I just thought the more stuff I put in there the less room they'd have so I stopped researching what plants were suitable for them.

Have to get some work done here but will be back!

Thank you!
 

platytudes

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I just mentioned the flow because you were using airstones - airstones are ok but you shouldn't need them if you have enough surface agitation.

With goldfish, you really need a minimum of 10x turnover of the tank's volume, IMO. More is better. (In reef tanks, 20x the tanks volume is not uncommon, that is why powerheads for SW are usually so much more powerful.) So for a 75 gallon tank, you need 750 gallons per hour in turnover, in my humble opinion.

You kind of have to ignore the specifications from the manufacturer. I mean, an Eheim Ecco 2234 is rated for 60 gallons, supposedly. But the flow is only 185 gph. Look at the Penguin 150 HOB filter. It is 150 gph, rated for 30 gallons. See what I mean? While the canister provides excellent filtration with its large area for media, if you have a fish with demanding O2 requirements like goldfish or riverine fish, you should have more flow.

Not sure what the gph of all your filters is combined, but add it up and see how it measures up. I think you would benefit from some powerheads instead of airstones, and while the Koralia nanos are meant for tiny tanks, they are discreet and each one pumps 240 gph.

I personally like to use HOB filters in combination with canisters on all my tanks, because I like getting the best of both worlds...but with my goldfish, I go the extra step of adding powerheads because they seem to benefit from it :)

25-30 gallons per goldfish is a good measure. I know you'll hear 15-20 gallons per goldfish routinely, but think about it: could you really keep one goldfish in a 15-20 gallon tank well? I don't think so, not for two decades (potential lifespan)
 

platytudes

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I just want to add one more thing. The conventional wisdom with tank stocking used to be "if you can't keep nitrates down, you know you are overstocked"

You really seem to do everything right. You feed great foods, change water weekly, and I bet have filtration that is up to snuff (although with goldies, you can't have too much). And yet you struggle with nitrates being high...

I know from experience that goldfish are so personable, it's almost impossible not to get attached to them...way more so than a zebra danio or a guppy, lol.

But if you could find a way to reduce your goldfish load by one goldfish, I think you might see a substantial difference. I don't know about you but it's almost impossible for me to find good homes for fish locally - but maybe (hopefully) you are in a better position in that regard.
 

Fancy75

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Platy,
Did I mention I "like" your humble opinion LOL
I've been so discouraged at the fact that I can't seem to get this tank under control and now, after all you guys have written, I can't wait to try out all this advice - slowly of course :)
For the past couple of weeks I considered seperating the goldfish to see if overstocking was my issue but, well, I'm just not so sure where I could place another tank LOL....I could put my Harlequin Rasboras in with my Lemon Tetras which would free up a 30gal for one goldfish and I have a spare 30gal in my basement I could set up.....but that would mean two of my little guys would be loney for a while :(
As for finding any of them a home...well...call me silly but I'm one of those silly pet owners that actually keep what they bring home and do whateve is needed to fulfill my commitment to them....(but that's another topic lol) so,,,,if overstocking really IS my problem...well....I can see another tank coming :)
I have spares of just about everything and all different sizes (I'm almost a store by myself lol) so maybe what I will do later tonight is set up the 70gal filter I have ( I have the brands you mentioned :) ) - (no laughing at me, I'm prepared for just about anything)
I wish I could sit here and discuss (and learn) water parameters and goldfish all day cuz I just love it but unfortunately I'm going to have to wait,,,stuff to do! GAWD I can't wait for retirement LOL
 

Lillyan

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You can try putting in real plants, my Goldfish never ate them. It might help. You can always put them in a large cage/planter made of plastic craft canvas and stuff it with plants, that way, if the plants don't help any, they will still be safe from munching fish.

I do not believe the statement that Goldfish have short digestive tracks. I read an article a few months back about it, wonder if I can find it again. Either way, if it were true, my fish would of pooed it out soon after, but it took just as long as other fish.
The color is always the same color of the food, no matter what fish it is; Platy, Angel, Gourami, Pleco.

Is there carbon in your filters? Can you remove it and add another sponge or bio media instead?
 

GoldLenny

Senior Member? Do I get a 5% disc.?
I do not believe the statement that Goldfish have short digestive tracks.
Here's a Fancy Goldfish Necropsy (Autopsy) with many nice and juicey pictures... scroll down to picture 9 to see a close up of the stomach and intestines. This article is best viewed while eating a nice big meal. ;-)
http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-internal-anatomy.html

As you will see, if you made it down to picture 9 without hurling that nice big meal, a fancy goldfish does not have much of a stomach and it's really just an enlarged section of their digestive tract which then narrows down into the intestines. Their is no real separate stomach organ like that in most other fish. Goldfish are not the only fish with the absense of a "real" stomach.

Here's a goldfish anatomical drawing which doesn't even diagram the stomach. http://www.flippersandfins.net/Images/GoldieAnatomyChart.JPG

There aren't many necropsies of most other fish, that I have seen over the years, in fact, I've never seen a photographed necropsy of any other common aquarium fish online, not even bigger aquarium fish... but here are a BUNCH of diagrams showing lots of anatomical drawings of other fish showing they do in fact have clearly defined stomachs. The bottome link is a perch which is, anatomically speaking, very similar to many larger cichlids.

http://kentsimmons.uwinnipeg.ca/16cm05/1116/34-13-RayFinFishAnatomy-L.jpg

http://universe-review.ca/I10-82-fish.jpg

http://oceanblue2u.com/images/tropic1.gif

http://www.infovisual.info/02/033_en.html

http://www.bildwoerterbuch.com/en/animal-kingdom/fishes/bony-fish/anatomy-of-a-perch.php (this one is labeled in German, I believe, based on my two years of high school German a long time ago, but down below the image, there is a translation into English and the Magen is the Stomach)

http://www.artscape.us/aquaculture/fish/fish_anatomy.jpg

Do you belive me now?

And for some comedic relief...
http://www.godlikemode.com/Goldfish-Cracker-Anatomy.jpg
 
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Fancy75

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Lillyan - I have tried some real plants in the past but always ended up taking them out becase they were either eaten or died. It would be nice to have a planted tank because I've always thought they were very pretty but I'd have to buy a whole lotta plants to help with nitrates and I didn't want to take up all their swimming space if I didn't have to.

Lenny - Holy EW! I had already taken your word for it regarding their instestines/stomachs but of course I just HAD to lol - but only at the first one, I stopped there :)

(wish I could understand all this KH DH 02 c02 etc talk - I just can't seem to really grasp it for some reason)
 

GoldLenny

Senior Member? Do I get a 5% disc.?
Here are a couple of articles about basic water chemistry that I think explain things pretty well. It's kind of like learning to ride a bike. Once you do it the first couple of times and it's so easy, you wonder why you got so beat up learning how.

This first one is actually from a Turtle site but I've found it to be an easy to understand read. http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/waterchemistry.htm

This second one is about water chemistry but it's actually part of an entire online tutorial for beginner fish keepers. http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html

Here's a snip from my blog page, "A to Z of Fish Keeping..." that has the main links for two free online tutorials and a 3-stage online quiz on a third site. I think ALL beginners should take these tutorials.

(SNIP from: http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/2007/02/to-z-of-fish-keeping-how-to-training.html )
BEGINNERS TUTORIAL - START HERE -http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-intro.html
This is one of my favorite places to send new fish keepers as they can learn about the various aspects of fish keeping by following all of the links in this tutorial. Pay particular attention to "The Nitrogen Cycle", "Fishless Cycling" (recommended), "Cycling With Fish"(not recommended but you may already be stuck with this) and Basic Water Chemistry but please read over all of the other links as well and feel free to ask lots of questions at the forums I have listed to the right, where you will usually find me or many other experienced fish keepers.

And if you want to learn even more, here is another tutorial site - http://badmanstropicalfish.com/basics/basics_aquariums.html

And if you feel you are doing well already, take this online quiz to see how you do.
http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/quiz1.htm
(END SNIP)
 
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