I went to pet store to buy a filter and was given QuickStart and fish and was told that’s the new age way to set aquarium. Now I’m learning all about cycle and water parameters and how stupid fish store employees can be after my 2 Cory cats died. Now I have 3 neons 1 rio orange and 1 ember red tetra with a small Java fern. I just added an extra sponge filter as bb home. Got aquean 10 gallon hob. Im 3 weeks in with no nitrites yet. Ph on strips say <=6.4 lowest reading but api master says 7.2 gh and kh are both 2. Ammonia runs .25-.5. When it hits .5 I do a 50% wc. I use aquasafe dechlor and QuickStart only cuz that’s what was sold to me. Gh and kh are low but ph is good. Neons like it low. Running 80 degrees from room temp. What should I do now? Why don’t I have nitrites ? Thanks for any help
Cycling 3 weeks with fish
- Thread starter mommy2girls!
- Start date
I am not a fan of the bacterial product you are using for a number of reasons.
1. The actual bacteria found in aquariums were discovered by Dr. Tomothy Hovanec when he was the chief scientist working at Marineland. He did this with several different scientists. He and Marinenland (which turned over this to Tetra) own patents on their products and bacteria and the methods for detecting and using them. This makes it almost impossible for other to sell these same bacteria.
2. If you buy either Dr. Tim's One and Only or Tetras Safe Start (or Safe Start Plus) they identify the exact strains of bacteria in their bottle. You cannot find this information on most other similar products.
3. I have used One and Only one a few occasions. Mostly, I used this to jump start my bio-farm for cyclking filters when I need ti have it up and running. What I do is to cycle filters for a number of tanks in one smaller tank. It takes me about 10 days to cycle filters such that when I move them into their final tank I am able to fully stock the new tank. I never get any readings for ammonia or nitrite in stocked tanks.
4. I do not add fish to a tank which is not fully cycled for them. I will never do a fish-in cycle, My very first ank was cycled this way. The 150+ tanks I have cycled since then have all been done fishless.
5, Understanding how bottled bacteria works is important. The bacteria we need reproduce by dividing, they do not form spores the way many other bacteria do. They do this to survive bad times. The nitrifiers have a different strategy. The are able to sense when what they need is not available and they go into a state of dormancy. Once things like ammonia. oxygen, inorganic carbon are again available in decent supply, they will revivie and get back to work. Bottle bacteria are in a state of dormancy if they are the proper strains. When we add them to a tank which has what then need, they wake up and go back to work.
6. Re The above, the bacteria stored at room temp will all stay viable for at least 6 months and for a year if kept in the fridge. They die if frozen or allowed to get much over 100F for any length of time. Once these time perdios are exceeded it takes longer for the bacteria to come back to the full capacity they and when put into the bottle. So this means older bottles will need to do some reproducing in the tank to be back to capacity.
7. Dr. H. and associates also discovered that the bacteria in FW vs SW were not identical, Dr. H. sells different products specifically for FW, SW or brackish. There is a reason for this.
8. Finally, I have never needed to add Dr. Tim's bacteria more than once to get a cycle up an running to fully stock. In fact, to save money I usually get 1/2 the amount needed and I spend a few days getting to multiply to the full strength I need. I usually rinse out a couple of the cycled sponges/foams from established tanks to further speed the process. If I only need to cycle a single tank then I just use squeezing from cycled filters.
9. Understand that one of the problems with doing a fish in cycle is that the fastest way to cycling a tank is to do as few water changes as possible. Remove the ammonia and/or nitrite and the cycle takes longer. One the other hand, when fish are present one needs to know when to change water. This is not a single number despite what you may read elsewhere. How toxic any ammonia reading might be to fish depends on the pH and temperature of the water. The higher these are, the more harmful any ammonia reading becomes. Therefore one needs to know what form he total ammonia is in a tank.
The best I can offer you at this stage is a link to the article on cycling I wrote for another site. Two of these deal with dealing with a fish in cycle gone wild. The most important one for you will be the second. You can find them here:
https://www.fishforums.net/threads/rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-i.433769/
and
https://www.fishforums.net/threads/rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il.433778/
1. The actual bacteria found in aquariums were discovered by Dr. Tomothy Hovanec when he was the chief scientist working at Marineland. He did this with several different scientists. He and Marinenland (which turned over this to Tetra) own patents on their products and bacteria and the methods for detecting and using them. This makes it almost impossible for other to sell these same bacteria.
2. If you buy either Dr. Tim's One and Only or Tetras Safe Start (or Safe Start Plus) they identify the exact strains of bacteria in their bottle. You cannot find this information on most other similar products.
3. I have used One and Only one a few occasions. Mostly, I used this to jump start my bio-farm for cyclking filters when I need ti have it up and running. What I do is to cycle filters for a number of tanks in one smaller tank. It takes me about 10 days to cycle filters such that when I move them into their final tank I am able to fully stock the new tank. I never get any readings for ammonia or nitrite in stocked tanks.
4. I do not add fish to a tank which is not fully cycled for them. I will never do a fish-in cycle, My very first ank was cycled this way. The 150+ tanks I have cycled since then have all been done fishless.
5, Understanding how bottled bacteria works is important. The bacteria we need reproduce by dividing, they do not form spores the way many other bacteria do. They do this to survive bad times. The nitrifiers have a different strategy. The are able to sense when what they need is not available and they go into a state of dormancy. Once things like ammonia. oxygen, inorganic carbon are again available in decent supply, they will revivie and get back to work. Bottle bacteria are in a state of dormancy if they are the proper strains. When we add them to a tank which has what then need, they wake up and go back to work.
6. Re The above, the bacteria stored at room temp will all stay viable for at least 6 months and for a year if kept in the fridge. They die if frozen or allowed to get much over 100F for any length of time. Once these time perdios are exceeded it takes longer for the bacteria to come back to the full capacity they and when put into the bottle. So this means older bottles will need to do some reproducing in the tank to be back to capacity.
7. Dr. H. and associates also discovered that the bacteria in FW vs SW were not identical, Dr. H. sells different products specifically for FW, SW or brackish. There is a reason for this.
8. Finally, I have never needed to add Dr. Tim's bacteria more than once to get a cycle up an running to fully stock. In fact, to save money I usually get 1/2 the amount needed and I spend a few days getting to multiply to the full strength I need. I usually rinse out a couple of the cycled sponges/foams from established tanks to further speed the process. If I only need to cycle a single tank then I just use squeezing from cycled filters.
9. Understand that one of the problems with doing a fish in cycle is that the fastest way to cycling a tank is to do as few water changes as possible. Remove the ammonia and/or nitrite and the cycle takes longer. One the other hand, when fish are present one needs to know when to change water. This is not a single number despite what you may read elsewhere. How toxic any ammonia reading might be to fish depends on the pH and temperature of the water. The higher these are, the more harmful any ammonia reading becomes. Therefore one needs to know what form he total ammonia is in a tank.
The best I can offer you at this stage is a link to the article on cycling I wrote for another site. Two of these deal with dealing with a fish in cycle gone wild. The most important one for you will be the second. You can find them here:
https://www.fishforums.net/threads/rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-i.433769/
and
https://www.fishforums.net/threads/rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il.433778/
Thank you so much for all the information. I have to let ammonia get higher than .5ppm? My poor fish. Why in the world would the pet store push this. I’m not sure how they can live with themselves. I think I’m going to put my fish in a 5 gallon tub with airstone and try to cycle that way. I can’t bring myself to intentionally hurt them. It’s just wrong. Question now is I’ve been testing regularly and I have a problem with kh and gh. My tap says 7.2ph 2gh and 2kh. My 10 gallon tank runs out of kh in about 12-24 hours. Wouldn’t this need some way of keeping it up. Or will it work it’s way out when it’s cycled?
I am not sure where you get .5 ppm from. The danger line for ammonia in the toxic NH3 form is 0.05 ppm. That is made perfectly clear in the links I provided 
Out test kits mostly measure Total Ammonia (TA). Bit in water Ammonia will exist in 2 forms NH3 which is very nasty stuff and NH4 which is ammonium and is much less harmful. TA is the sum of the two forms. So when we test using the popular API kit. the result we see is for TA. It is up to us to work out how much of that TA is in each of the two forms.
So lets suppose you have three tanks of the same size, decor and filters. You are cycling all three with the same number and size fish. However, one tank has a pH of 6.5 another has a pH of 7.2 and the third's pH is 8.0. Lets also assume they are all at the same temp. -> 78F. Now you test all 3 tanks for ammonia with your API kit and they all gave a reading for TA of 2 ppm. What should you do in each of these tanks.
Using the ammonia calculator linked in the 2nd article, I have determined the following:
Tank #1 with the pH at 6.5 has 1.9962 ppm of NH4 and 0.0038 ppm of NH3. You should do nothing in this tank.
Tank #2 with the pH at 7.2 has 1.981 ppm of NH4 and 0.019 ppm of NH3. You should do nothing in this tank.
Tank #3 with the pH at 8.0 has 1.8858 ppm of NH4 and 0.1142 ppm of NH3. You should do an immediate water change of 75% or two changes of 50% each. You should continue testing since the danger level for TA in this tank is around 0.88 ppm.
So, here are three tanks with a TA reading of 2 ppm and 2/3 tanks are safe for fish that level. Please note that safe is a relative term as for how long matters. If it is during cycling, that should be short term. The bacteria will be reproducing and ammonia levels should becoming less of a threat every day as they are dropping.
Also, I do not recommend that TA during a fish in cycle be allowed to exceed 2 ppm. for any length of time no matter how low the NH3 is. Believe it or not, in a tank with a pH of 6.0 and a temp. of 86F (30C) there can be a TA of 5.0 ppm and the NH3 level will still only be 0.043 ppm below the danger line. However, 4.957 of NH4 is not safe for fish.
Out test kits mostly measure Total Ammonia (TA). Bit in water Ammonia will exist in 2 forms NH3 which is very nasty stuff and NH4 which is ammonium and is much less harmful. TA is the sum of the two forms. So when we test using the popular API kit. the result we see is for TA. It is up to us to work out how much of that TA is in each of the two forms.
So lets suppose you have three tanks of the same size, decor and filters. You are cycling all three with the same number and size fish. However, one tank has a pH of 6.5 another has a pH of 7.2 and the third's pH is 8.0. Lets also assume they are all at the same temp. -> 78F. Now you test all 3 tanks for ammonia with your API kit and they all gave a reading for TA of 2 ppm. What should you do in each of these tanks.
Using the ammonia calculator linked in the 2nd article, I have determined the following:
Tank #1 with the pH at 6.5 has 1.9962 ppm of NH4 and 0.0038 ppm of NH3. You should do nothing in this tank.
Tank #2 with the pH at 7.2 has 1.981 ppm of NH4 and 0.019 ppm of NH3. You should do nothing in this tank.
Tank #3 with the pH at 8.0 has 1.8858 ppm of NH4 and 0.1142 ppm of NH3. You should do an immediate water change of 75% or two changes of 50% each. You should continue testing since the danger level for TA in this tank is around 0.88 ppm.
So, here are three tanks with a TA reading of 2 ppm and 2/3 tanks are safe for fish that level. Please note that safe is a relative term as for how long matters. If it is during cycling, that should be short term. The bacteria will be reproducing and ammonia levels should becoming less of a threat every day as they are dropping.
Also, I do not recommend that TA during a fish in cycle be allowed to exceed 2 ppm. for any length of time no matter how low the NH3 is. Believe it or not, in a tank with a pH of 6.0 and a temp. of 86F (30C) there can be a TA of 5.0 ppm and the NH3 level will still only be 0.043 ppm below the danger line. However, 4.957 of NH4 is not safe for fish.
Yeah I read that and used the calculator to get .0033 so it seems all is good. I just was told total ammo above .5ppm was bad so it’s taking a minute to recalibrate my thoughts. I guess I would need to let the Ammonia go higher. Oh this is nerve racking. Im literally shaking. What about gh/kh will that affect the cycle ? Within 24 hours after wc my kh drops to zero. Thanks for your quick reply
The KH matters because in aquaroiums this is basically carbonates and bicarbonates and the bacteria use these as well as CO2 as their sources of inorganic carbon. KH of 0 will usually mean the cycle will stall. The easiest way to counteract this is to put a bag of crushed coral into one's filter.
But is is a bit more complex than just the carbon side of things. KH is what holds up pH. As the pH drops below 7.0 more and more of the TA is in the NH4 form. The bacteria cannot use NH4 as efficiently as they use NH3. Therefore they work more slowly. This is why the cycle appears to stop as one's pH drops under 5.
Please do not get nuts over this stuff. Also, please note that different species of fish have differing tolerances for ammonia. So by setting the red line at 0.05 ppm, one is pretty sure of protecting most of the fish we might keep in our tanks. However, you should have noticed in the articles that it says that one must also monitor the behavior of the fish no matter how safe a low level of ammonia should be. If the fish are not handling it well they will "tell" you this because their behaviour will change.
But is is a bit more complex than just the carbon side of things. KH is what holds up pH. As the pH drops below 7.0 more and more of the TA is in the NH4 form. The bacteria cannot use NH4 as efficiently as they use NH3. Therefore they work more slowly. This is why the cycle appears to stop as one's pH drops under 5.
Please do not get nuts over this stuff. Also, please note that different species of fish have differing tolerances for ammonia. So by setting the red line at 0.05 ppm, one is pretty sure of protecting most of the fish we might keep in our tanks. However, you should have noticed in the articles that it says that one must also monitor the behavior of the fish no matter how safe a low level of ammonia should be. If the fish are not handling it well they will "tell" you this because their behaviour will change.
The more calm one is in handling all this, the lower the odds are that one will make a mistake by acting too fast. Also, there is a tendency to over simplify things. If you understand the basics of the cycle and how it should progress, it becomes easier to know what is going on in your tank. As my illustration of the 3 tanks and why the same ammonia reading may or may not be bad, knowing the "facts" makes the decision making process a whole lot simpler and easier to handle.
Thank you. You remind me of a professor. You are an excellent teacher. 
Where exactly do I put any crushed coral? I don’t see any available space.
Where exactly do I put any crushed coral? I don’t see any available space.Today my total ammonia has risen to ~.75ppm and temp dropped 1 degree overnight and is sitting at 79degrees. Also ph is still steady at 7.0. Fish look fine. using the calculator I have .0047 NH3 so I’m not changing water today. Instead I’m wringing my hands and waiting. I pray I’m doing this right
Ammonia is a tricky thing. What complicates it is that different fish can manage with different levels. In a community style tank this means we must play to the most sensitive species. This why the article tells folks that it is important to monitor the fish behavior.
And you are doing it right, you are using the science rather than the urban myths to guide your actions. Yes, we know ammonia is potentially harmful. We know the obvious, drop a fish into a glass of ammonia and it will be dead very fast. The problem is at the other end of the spectrum. When there is a low level of ammonia and iot will only be there for the short term, it is nowhere near the same thing. And understanding the difference involves something a little more complicated than simply saying any ammonia is dangerous and you must do big water changes no matter what else it involved.
Here is one of the problems with that. We also know that stress is bad for fish. It weakens their immune system. So stressed fish are more likely to get "sick." But what we fail to consider is how stressful water changes can be. Bear in mind the journey your fish have undergone. Whether they are wild caught, farm raised or even tank raised by a hobbyist, they all tend to have a few things in common.
1. The have been chased and netted a few times along the way to your tank.
2. They have llikely been moved to dfiffering parameter water a few times as well.
3. They have likely been in overcrowded conditions in many cases.
4. They may not have been fed a lot nor with better quality food.
5. Finally their last disruption is the trip to you tank which is a very strange new place likely with other inhabitants they may never ever meet in their natural habitat.
So given all of the above they then find themselves in a world where arms are in the water, the water level may suddenly drop. A huge tube may be waving about their world and the lighting is not so normal either. And if they are further subjected to multiple large water change life is not exactly free from stress by any means.
Then add to this the exposure to ammonia and nitrite and nitrate. Even if one is doing big water change to hold down the levels, they will not be 0, they will just be lower. But on top of that there is all the stress.
You are new to the hobby so you have not spend a lot of time "learning your fish." That is, you do not yet have a feel for what is normal for them in a cycled balanced environment. But over time one of the things you will observe is this. Easrly on weekly maintenance scares the heck out of most fish. Most of them or even all will hide in fear. But as time goes by you will start to notice some of the fish will become less upset with water changes and your working inside their home.
I had Siamese algae eaters in my high tech planted tank. They scattered and hid early on when I would vacuum the plants. But then there came a time when instead of hiding they would try to nibble the fine hair on the back of my hands belieing it to be hair algae. It tickles. Amano shrimp on the other hand have little claws and they do nip. it is not as big pain but you notice they have tiny claws.
The point is that the whole cycle and ammonia.nitrite issues with cycling with fish also happens at a time in the fishes experience in a tank when it is naturally the most stressed by the circumstances. But this is something that gets better with time. However, your cyle will be done before your fish have adapted and become settled into their new home and life conditions.
The problem with all of this is there is plenty of science which tell us what level of ammonia is garmful or not, but I have yet to find any papers which deal with the stress levels a fish undergoes when it is introduced to a new tank, especially one with many big water changes and nasty chemicals present in some amount right away.
I do not believe in doing fish in cycles and will never suggest to anyone that they do them. I will also not write an article explaining how to do one safely because I feel that make me an accessory to a lot of fish deaths. What I did do was write those two articles to help new fish keepers get through the process when it goes off the rails, However, the way to prevent this possibility all one needs to do is to cycle without fish.
I will never buy any fish from a pet store. i almost never buy fish from a fish store either. There are very few good ones and those which are usually charge the most. It is not cheap to insure the fish one is selling are healthy and disease free especially when it is a business. I prefer to buy my fish from breeders or as imports or from wholesalers. That way I know they will be the least expensive, I will know I must Q them for an extended period and I keep a fairly well stocked med. kit because the odds are about even that I will need to treat them for something.
One of the harder things to learn as a hobbyist is where to shop for fish that are most likely going to be healthy. This is especially true if one is on a budget. But remember this, "one live healthy fish is worth at least 3 DOAs."
And you are doing it right, you are using the science rather than the urban myths to guide your actions. Yes, we know ammonia is potentially harmful. We know the obvious, drop a fish into a glass of ammonia and it will be dead very fast. The problem is at the other end of the spectrum. When there is a low level of ammonia and iot will only be there for the short term, it is nowhere near the same thing. And understanding the difference involves something a little more complicated than simply saying any ammonia is dangerous and you must do big water changes no matter what else it involved.
Here is one of the problems with that. We also know that stress is bad for fish. It weakens their immune system. So stressed fish are more likely to get "sick." But what we fail to consider is how stressful water changes can be. Bear in mind the journey your fish have undergone. Whether they are wild caught, farm raised or even tank raised by a hobbyist, they all tend to have a few things in common.
1. The have been chased and netted a few times along the way to your tank.
2. They have llikely been moved to dfiffering parameter water a few times as well.
3. They have likely been in overcrowded conditions in many cases.
4. They may not have been fed a lot nor with better quality food.
5. Finally their last disruption is the trip to you tank which is a very strange new place likely with other inhabitants they may never ever meet in their natural habitat.
So given all of the above they then find themselves in a world where arms are in the water, the water level may suddenly drop. A huge tube may be waving about their world and the lighting is not so normal either. And if they are further subjected to multiple large water change life is not exactly free from stress by any means.
Then add to this the exposure to ammonia and nitrite and nitrate. Even if one is doing big water change to hold down the levels, they will not be 0, they will just be lower. But on top of that there is all the stress.
You are new to the hobby so you have not spend a lot of time "learning your fish." That is, you do not yet have a feel for what is normal for them in a cycled balanced environment. But over time one of the things you will observe is this. Easrly on weekly maintenance scares the heck out of most fish. Most of them or even all will hide in fear. But as time goes by you will start to notice some of the fish will become less upset with water changes and your working inside their home.
I had Siamese algae eaters in my high tech planted tank. They scattered and hid early on when I would vacuum the plants. But then there came a time when instead of hiding they would try to nibble the fine hair on the back of my hands belieing it to be hair algae. It tickles. Amano shrimp on the other hand have little claws and they do nip. it is not as big pain but you notice they have tiny claws.
The point is that the whole cycle and ammonia.nitrite issues with cycling with fish also happens at a time in the fishes experience in a tank when it is naturally the most stressed by the circumstances. But this is something that gets better with time. However, your cyle will be done before your fish have adapted and become settled into their new home and life conditions.
The problem with all of this is there is plenty of science which tell us what level of ammonia is garmful or not, but I have yet to find any papers which deal with the stress levels a fish undergoes when it is introduced to a new tank, especially one with many big water changes and nasty chemicals present in some amount right away.
I do not believe in doing fish in cycles and will never suggest to anyone that they do them. I will also not write an article explaining how to do one safely because I feel that make me an accessory to a lot of fish deaths. What I did do was write those two articles to help new fish keepers get through the process when it goes off the rails, However, the way to prevent this possibility all one needs to do is to cycle without fish.
I will never buy any fish from a pet store. i almost never buy fish from a fish store either. There are very few good ones and those which are usually charge the most. It is not cheap to insure the fish one is selling are healthy and disease free especially when it is a business. I prefer to buy my fish from breeders or as imports or from wholesalers. That way I know they will be the least expensive, I will know I must Q them for an extended period and I keep a fairly well stocked med. kit because the odds are about even that I will need to treat them for something.
One of the harder things to learn as a hobbyist is where to shop for fish that are most likely going to be healthy. This is especially true if one is on a budget. But remember this, "one live healthy fish is worth at least 3 DOAs."
Today is the 5th day from a water change and no top offs. Total 24 days since adding fish. TA 1.5ppm NH3 is .0155 nitrites and nitrates still 0 PH7.2 GH2 KH 0
All fish are swimming and eating normally. They all come to the front in a group when we approach the tank. My Java fern I think is reproducing. Looks like 2 miniature plants hanging off the largest leaf and a row of black dots all along the edge of the two most mature leaves.
im worried the TA ammonia will hit 2ppm tomorrow or the next day. When it does how much water should I change? And just straight water from top of tank meaning don’t touch gravel or anything else?
All fish are swimming and eating normally. They all come to the front in a group when we approach the tank. My Java fern I think is reproducing. Looks like 2 miniature plants hanging off the largest leaf and a row of black dots all along the edge of the two most mature leaves.
im worried the TA ammonia will hit 2ppm tomorrow or the next day. When it does how much water should I change? And just straight water from top of tank meaning don’t touch gravel or anything else?
