Nitrite levels and where they should be

[goldfish123457]

I have a single goldfish in a 37 gallon tank.

Everywhere I read I am told nitrate and trite levels should be 0.

I currently record nitrite at 3ppm and nitrate at 20-40.

I have done daily water changes of 15+ gallons along with vac cleaning. I wipe down the tank each time. After the water changes these levels drop and are right back the next day. The fish gets 5 pellets of food a day. Tap water with 0 nitrate and nitrite is water source.

What else can be done? I have gone through over 100 gallons of water.

Fish also seems to have a clamped gill. I say seems because you can't find any pictures on this stuff.

 

[FreshyFresh]

How long has the tank been setup with the fish in it?

On a healthy tank w/ an established nitrogen cycle, the tank should process ammonia and nitrite and produce nothing but nitrates. Depending on the tank's stocking level and the amount of food added, the nitrate level will creep up daily. We typically do water changes such that the tank doesn't see over ~20ppm nitrate between water changes.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Your tank is not properly cycled. You do not indicate you have an ammonia reading. So I will assume you managed to cultivate enough of the bacteria that convert it to nitrite. What you lack is enough bacteria to process the nitrite.

Changing water slows the process of building up more of the bacteria as they respond to excess nitrite to trigger them to reproduce. However, you can block nitrite by using small amounts of plain old salt. What will be helping is the chloride portion of the sodium chloride. This out competes nitrite and it is unable to affect the fish. You still need to monitor nitrates, 40 is too high for most fish.

Nitrite blocks the ability of the hemoglobin in the blood of the fish from holding oxygen, so even though there is plenty of O in the water, it cannot be used by the fish. Moreover, once inside the fish, nitrite takes a day or tas many as three to work its way out of a fish. But if there is still nitrite in the water, it will continue to enter the fish unless blocked by chloride.The only way I know to c;ear the nitrite and get oxygen back into the blood is by using Methylene Blue. This will stain a tank and is usually not needed if one uses salt/chloride.

I can help you with how to deal with this if you can handle the information and directions below. (Yes, I wrote them, but I did so for another site.)

SOME FACTS ABOUT NITRITE

This too is a problem and it is important to understand how it affects fish in order to know how you can deal with it.

“Nitrite enters the bloodstream through the gills and turns the blood to a chocolate-brown color. Hemoglobin, which transports oxygen in the blood, combines with nitrite to form methemoglobin, which is incapable of oxygen transport. Brown blood cannot carry sufficient amounts of oxygen, and affected fish can suffocate despite adequate oxygen concentration in the water. This accounts for the gasping behavior often observed in fish with brown blood disease, even when oxygen levels are relatively high.”


SIGNS OF NITRITE POISONING

Fish will not behave as they normally do. Because their blood is not carrying oxygen, fish will behave as if they are suffocating. They may hang just below the water surface or near filter outflows trying to get air. What you will not see is any outward sign of bodily damage nor damage to the gills of the fish.


HOW TO MANAGE NITRITE POISONING

Fortunately, there is an effective way to blunt the harmful effects of elevated nitrite that doesn’t involve changing lots of water- you add salt (sodium chloride) to the water. The chloride in the salt acts to” block” the ability of nitrite to enter though the gills of the fish and thus to cause the harm inside the fish it might. So it is possible to manage elevated nitrite over the short term using salt in relatively small amounts.

“Sodium chloride (common salt, NaCl) is used to “treat” brown blood disease. Calcium chloride can also be used but is typically more expensive. The chloride portion of salt competes with nitrite for absorption through the gills. Maintaining at least a 10 to 1 ratio of chloride to nitrite in a pond effectively prevents nitrite from entering catfish.”

It should be noted that the Merck Veterinary manual suggests a lower ratio of chloride:

“In freshwater production ponds for channel catfish, a ratio of 6 parts Cl to 1 part NO2 has effectively prevented or treated methemoglobinemia caused by nitrite exposure.”

Since the amount of salt needed to produce either 6 or 10 times the chloride as nitrite is minimal, this author prefers to use the higher ratio of 10 to 1 in order to be more certain of obtaining the needed relief. One should also be aware that studies indicate that, whether one changes water or uses chloride to counter the effects of nitrite toxicity, it will still take between 24-72 hours for nitrite already inside fish to be completely eliminated. Preventing further nitrite from entering usually solves the problem.


WHAT SALT TO USE
Plain old table salt is just fine for use here. Do not worry if it says Iodized or if it says it contains Anti-caking agents. The amount of either of these in the salt is so minimal one would pickle their fish long before these ingredients would be doing any harm. Read here for facts about table salt and fish: http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/The_Salt_of_the_Earth

CALCULATING HOW MUCH SALT TO ADD

PPM is a measure of concentration in water. You cannot weigh ppms. However, 1 mg/l is almost the exact equivalent in water to 1 ppm. So one can use ppm and mg/l interchangeably in this case. You can weigh milligrams.

To add 10 mg/l of chloride for every ppm of nitrite in the water, use the following steps:

1. Multiply your nitrite test reading by 10. This will give you the needed mg/l of chloride you need to add.

2. Calculate the actual volume in litres of the water in your tank. If your volume is in gallons you must convert this into liters. (As a rule, using the advertised volume of the tank at about 85% will put you in the right ballpark.) 1 gallon = 3.875 litres

3. Multiply the number in #1 above by the number of liters of water in #2 above to get the total number of mg of chloride you will need to add.

4. Because salt is roughly 2/3 chloride, you must multiply the number calculated in #3 by 1.5. You now know how many mg of salt you should add to the water. Dividing this number by 1,000 will convert this amount to grams which are easier to weigh for most people.

5. Do not add the dry salt directly to the tank. Remove some tank water to a container and mix the salt in that, then add the salt water to the tank spreading it around the surface.

Hint: We have calculated a handy conversion from grams to volume so one can measure in tea or table spoons which most folks are likely to have while a gram scale is not. The following calculations were made using an Ohaus triple beam scale: ¼ teaspoon of salt shaker sized table salt weighs 2 grams.

The readings used in this article are for API and similar type test kits which measure in total ions. Some kits will measure using a different scale, they are only measuring the nitrogen. You can tell when a kit reads just the nitrogen by the way they state things. The typical kits will say they measure Total Ammonia (NH3 + NH4), Nitrite (NO2) or Nitrate (N03). Kits that measure only the nitrogen ions will usually say they measure Total Ammonia-Nitrogen (NH3-N + NH4-N), Nitrite-Nitrogen (NO2-N) or Nitrate-Nitrogen (NO3-N).


if you have a nitrogen scale kit, PM me and I will provide you with how to convert the reading between the scales. It is like converting moile to kilometers or F to C.

You need to continue to test for nitrite. If it rises, you will need to add more salt. If the nitrate gets too high, you should change some water. if you do, you need to retest for nitrite levels after you refill and determine you still have enough salt in the water.

When you have managed to have nitrite down to 0 all the time, the only way to remove salt from the water is via water changes. Once your tank is fully cycled, you can do big ones with no worries about the nitrogen complex.

 

[goldfish123457]

How long has the tank been setup with the fish in it?

On a healthy tank w/ an established nitrogen cycle, the tank should process ammonia and nitrite and produce nothing but nitrates. Depending on the tank's stocking level and the amount of food added, the nitrate level will creep up daily. We typically do water changes such that the tank doesn't see over ~20ppm nitrate between water changes.

2-3 months

 

[goldfish123457]

Your tank is not properly cycled. You do not indicate you have an ammonia reading. So I will assume you managed to cultivate enough of the bacteria that convert it to nitrite. What you lack is enough bacteria to process the nitrite.

Changing water slows the process of building up more of the bacteria as they respond to excess nitrite to trigger them to reproduce. However, you can block nitrite by using small amounts of plain old salt. What will be helping is the chloride portion of the sodium chloride. This out competes nitrite and it is unable to affect the fish. You still need to monitor nitrates, 40 is too high for most fish.

Nitrite blocks the ability of the hemoglobin in the blood of the fish from holding oxygen, so even though there is plenty of O in the water, it cannot be used by the fish. Moreover, once inside the fish, nitrite takes a day or tas many as three to work its way out of a fish. But if there is still nitrite in the water, it will continue to enter the fish unless blocked by chloride.The only way I know to c;ear the nitrite and get oxygen back into the blood is by using Methylene Blue. This will stain a tank and is usually not needed if one uses salt/chloride.

I can help you with how to deal with this if you can handle the information and directions below. (Yes, I wrote them, but I did so for another site.)

SOME FACTS ABOUT NITRITE

This too is a problem and it is important to understand how it affects fish in order to know how you can deal with it.

“Nitrite enters the bloodstream through the gills and turns the blood to a chocolate-brown color. Hemoglobin, which transports oxygen in the blood, combines with nitrite to form methemoglobin, which is incapable of oxygen transport. Brown blood cannot carry sufficient amounts of oxygen, and affected fish can suffocate despite adequate oxygen concentration in the water. This accounts for the gasping behavior often observed in fish with brown blood disease, even when oxygen levels are relatively high.”


SIGNS OF NITRITE POISONING

Fish will not behave as they normally do. Because their blood is not carrying oxygen, fish will behave as if they are suffocating. They may hang just below the water surface or near filter outflows trying to get air. What you will not see is any outward sign of bodily damage nor damage to the gills of the fish.


HOW TO MANAGE NITRITE POISONING

Fortunately, there is an effective way to blunt the harmful effects of elevated nitrite that doesn’t involve changing lots of water- you add salt (sodium chloride) to the water. The chloride in the salt acts to” block” the ability of nitrite to enter though the gills of the fish and thus to cause the harm inside the fish it might. So it is possible to manage elevated nitrite over the short term using salt in relatively small amounts.

“Sodium chloride (common salt, NaCl) is used to “treat” brown blood disease. Calcium chloride can also be used but is typically more expensive. The chloride portion of salt competes with nitrite for absorption through the gills. Maintaining at least a 10 to 1 ratio of chloride to nitrite in a pond effectively prevents nitrite from entering catfish.”

It should be noted that the Merck Veterinary manual suggests a lower ratio of chloride:

“In freshwater production ponds for channel catfish, a ratio of 6 parts Cl to 1 part NO2 has effectively prevented or treated methemoglobinemia caused by nitrite exposure.”

Since the amount of salt needed to produce either 6 or 10 times the chloride as nitrite is minimal, this author prefers to use the higher ratio of 10 to 1 in order to be more certain of obtaining the needed relief. One should also be aware that studies indicate that, whether one changes water or uses chloride to counter the effects of nitrite toxicity, it will still take between 24-72 hours for nitrite already inside fish to be completely eliminated. Preventing further nitrite from entering usually solves the problem.


WHAT SALT TO USE
Plain old table salt is just fine for use here. Do not worry if it says Iodized or if it says it contains Anti-caking agents. The amount of either of these in the salt is so minimal one would pickle their fish long before these ingredients would be doing any harm. Read here for facts about table salt and fish: http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/The_Salt_of_the_Earth

CALCULATING HOW MUCH SALT TO ADD

PPM is a measure of concentration in water. You cannot weigh ppms. However, 1 mg/l is almost the exact equivalent in water to 1 ppm. So one can use ppm and mg/l interchangeably in this case. You can weigh milligrams.

To add 10 mg/l of chloride for every ppm of nitrite in the water, use the following steps:

1. Multiply your nitrite test reading by 10. This will give you the needed mg/l of chloride you need to add.

2. Calculate the actual volume in litres of the water in your tank. If your volume is in gallons you must convert this into liters. (As a rule, using the advertised volume of the tank at about 85% will put you in the right ballpark.) 1 gallon = 3.875 litres

3. Multiply the number in #1 above by the number of liters of water in #2 above to get the total number of mg of chloride you will need to add.

4. Because salt is roughly 2/3 chloride, you must multiply the number calculated in #3 by 1.5. You now know how many mg of salt you should add to the water. Dividing this number by 1,000 will convert this amount to grams which are easier to weigh for most people.

5. Do not add the dry salt directly to the tank. Remove some tank water to a container and mix the salt in that, then add the salt water to the tank spreading it around the surface.

Hint: We have calculated a handy conversion from grams to volume so one can measure in tea or table spoons which most folks are likely to have while a gram scale is not. The following calculations were made using an Ohaus triple beam scale: ¼ teaspoon of salt shaker sized table salt weighs 2 grams.

The readings used in this article are for API and similar type test kits which measure in total ions. Some kits will measure using a different scale, they are only measuring the nitrogen. You can tell when a kit reads just the nitrogen by the way they state things. The typical kits will say they measure Total Ammonia (NH3 + NH4), Nitrite (NO2) or Nitrate (N03). Kits that measure only the nitrogen ions will usually say they measure Total Ammonia-Nitrogen (NH3-N + NH4-N), Nitrite-Nitrogen (NO2-N) or Nitrate-Nitrogen (NO3-N).


if you have a nitrogen scale kit, PM me and I will provide you with how to convert the reading between the scales. It is like converting moile to kilometers or F to C.

You need to continue to test for nitrite. If it rises, you will need to add more salt. If the nitrate gets too high, you should change some water. if you do, you need to retest for nitrite levels after you refill and determine you still have enough salt in the water.

When you have managed to have nitrite down to 0 all the time, the only way to remove salt from the water is via water changes. Once your tank is fully cycled, you can do big ones with no worries about the nitrogen complex.

Ok, I did read this as well. I incorporated 5 gallons of softened well water into the 15 gallons that were changed today to introduce salt. I will add the measurements you have provided.

Just to go over the salt calculation:

Nitrate levels were at 3 ppm.

3x10=30
(37g x .85 x 3.875 x 30 x 1.5) 1000= ~5.5 grams = ~.7 teaspoons

 

[FreshyFresh]

2-3 months

Do you know anyone with a known healthy, established tank you could get some substrate or filtration media from? This will help.

I run extra bags of bio media for this purpose.

I'm not going against TwoTankAmin's advice, but another option is a dechlorinator / water treatment product like Seachem Prime or the granular form Safe. These products will temporarily detoxify ammonia or nitrite. Key word being temporarily.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

It is easier for me to see it in the steps. I am rounding up or down a tiny bit along the way.

Nitrite - 3 ppm x 10 = 30 mg/litre needed

1. 37 gal tank x .85 = 31.45 gals.
2. 31.45 gals x 3.75 = 117.94 litres.
3. 30 mg/l x 117.94 litres = 3,538 mg of chloride needed.
4. 3,538 mg x 1.5 salt factor = 5,307 mg of salt.
5. 5,307 mg/1000 = 5.31 gm of salt to be added.

1/4 teaspoon = 2 gm.
5.31 gm needed/2 gm = 2.65 x .25 teaspoons = .663 teaspoon. So you were fairly close, unless my math is off.

It is not easy to work in 1/3 teaspoon increments and you need 2/3 of a teaspoon. Like I said. it doesn't take lots of salt and most fish will not care about this amount. If you have both a 1/2 and a 1/8 teaspoon in your set, adding one level spoon of each will result in .5 + .125 = .625 teaspoons. this is pretty close to the desired .663. It is only 6% less and that would mean it produces about 28.2 ppm. Use your judgement. I do not think it matters if one is +/- 6% on the chloride, especially since some would suggest less than I do.

Please understand the salt will block the nitrite but it will still be in the water. The tank is safe when you can read 0 nitrite and not before.

If you want to take things down to the most accurate, i would tell you that you can also remove some of the salt as the nitrite readings drop. But it means more math. If your nitrite drops to 2 ppm you can change 1/3 of the water and that removes 1/3 of the salt. It is important that should nitrite levels rise, you add the proportionate amount of more salt. You are working towards desired concentrations.

To those reading here there is another way to do this all but it takes a sw fish keeper who can measure salinity. They know how much salt to add to a tank because they measure it with an hydrometer or a refractometer. And then you need the formu;las for converting wmy stuff to salt stuff. i have no experience in sw keeping, hence I do the above.

What FF suggest would help, but it will also slow the cycle. It will convert the ammonia in the tank to a form the ammonia bacteria do not use as effectively. So nitrite production is slower and thus fixing it slows as well. I would suggest this for an ammonia issue since we cannot neutralize it by simpler means than detoxifying it chemically. However, that also makes testing for ammonia to go wonky. I do not know how it might change nitrite test results. This is all they state about Prime and nitrite (which you must overdose for this).

The detoxification of nitrite and nitrate by Prime® (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite and nitrate is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.

I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify nitrite and nitrate. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime® they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite and nitrate levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product.

This is not the science I prefer to see. They do not even consider that the prime may effect the test results as they know it does for ammonia testing.

If you can borrow bacteria that would also help. However, there is no way to know what else might come in with things from the tanks which are not under your control. I prefer to see this done form a person's other tanks if they have them. Otherwise one risks bringing in something unwanted with donated bacteria. Again, I think this is more useful when there is also an ammonia issue. You can solve your nitrite problem with a bit of salt. I cannot imagine anything easier.

 

[FreshyFresh]

What FF suggest would help, but it will also slow the cycle. It will convert the ammonia in the tank to a form the ammonia bacteria do not use as effectively. So nitrite production is slower and thus fixing it slows as well. I would suggest this for an ammonia issue since we cannot neutralize it by simpler means than detoxifying it chemically...

Ahh! Excellent point!

 

[goldfish123457]

It is easier for me to see it in the steps. I am rounding up or down a tiny bit along the way.

Nitrite - 3 ppm x 10 = 30 mg/litre needed

1. 37 gal tank x .85 = 31.45 gals.
2. 31.45 gals x 3.75 = 117.94 litres.
3. 30 mg/l x 117.94 litres = 3,538 mg of chloride needed.
4. 3,538 mg x 1.5 salt factor = 5,307 mg of salt.
5. 5,307 mg/1000 = 5.31 gm of salt to be added.

1/4 teaspoon = 2 gm.
5.31 gm needed/2 gm = 2.65 x .25 teaspoons = .663 teaspoon. So you were fairly close, unless my math is off.

It is not easy to work in 1/3 teaspoon increments and you need 2/3 of a teaspoon. Like I said. it doesn't take lots of salt and most fish will not care about this amount. If you have both a 1/2 and a 1/8 teaspoon in your set, adding one level spoon of each will result in .5 + .125 = .625 teaspoons. this is pretty close to the desired .663. It is only 6% less and that would mean it produces about 28.2 ppm. Use your judgement. I do not think it matters if one is +/- 6% on the chloride, especially since some would suggest less than I do.

Please understand the salt will block the nitrite but it will still be in the water. The tank is safe when you can read 0 nitrite and not before.

If you want to take things down to the most accurate, i would tell you that you can also remove some of the salt as the nitrite readings drop. But it means more math. If your nitrite drops to 2 ppm you can change 1/3 of the water and that removes 1/3 of the salt. It is important that should nitrite levels rise, you add the proportionate amount of more salt. You are working towards desired concentrations.

To those reading here there is another way to do this all but it takes a sw fish keeper who can measure salinity. They know how much salt to add to a tank because they measure it with an hydrometer or a refractometer. And then you need the formu;las for converting wmy stuff to salt stuff. i have no experience in sw keeping, hence I do the above.

What FF suggest would help, but it will also slow the cycle. It will convert the ammonia in the tank to a form the ammonia bacteria do not use as effectively. So nitrite production is slower and thus fixing it slows as well. I would suggest this for an ammonia issue since we cannot neutralize it by simpler means than detoxifying it chemically. However, that also makes testing for ammonia to go wonky. I do not know how it might change nitrite test results. This is all they state about Prime and nitrite (which you must overdose for this).


This is not the science I prefer to see. They do not even consider that the prime may effect the test results as they know it does for ammonia testing.

If you can borrow bacteria that would also help. However, there is no way to know what else might come in with things from the tanks which are not under your control. I prefer to see this done form a person's other tanks if they have them. Otherwise one risks bringing in something unwanted with donated bacteria. Again, I think this is more useful when there is also an ammonia issue. You can solve your nitrite problem with a bit of salt. I cannot imagine anything easier.

We both rounded.

So The idea is the salt will help to block the fish from binding to nitrate until the tank can finish its cycle? I will know the tank has finished its cycle when nitrite falls to 0?

What is an acceptable amount of nitrate then seeing as this is the final product? I would assume future water changes should be based off nitrate readings if the tank is fully cycled.

Any advice on the clamped gill? I assume its clamped as it seems sunken (like someone sucking in their stomach) compared to the other gill. It's amazing that I can not find a single picture to compare on the net.

 

[FreshyFresh]

What is an acceptable amount of nitrate then seeing as this is the final product? I would assume future water changes should be based off nitrate readings if the tank is fully cycled.

Answered in post #2 of this thread.