Helps diagnose rtc illness please!!!!

[bigcols]

Hi all, ive done alot of research on this but still stumped, i really need ur help.

My largest rtc most defo has internal parasites, the water quality spiked like crazy all over the place really, ph 6.0----amm is now lowered to near 0 but was off the charts last week (above 8.0ppm) nitrites are slowly going up 0.50 (not good but its a sign that there is BB to deal with the amm in the water) and nitrates are at 40ppm have been from the begining. My question is really, can i add salt to the water to help get rid of these parasites that are clearly causing my rtc to breath faster than usual, the inside of his mouth is all red and what looks to me like ulsers!!!! he still eats squid but not massive portions like he used to, hes roughly 2ft in length but lost alot of weight over the past couple of weeks. I did notice gill curl starting to form so drastic action was required, for the past few days ive been doing a 50% water change adding declorinator for every change, the tank is an 8x2x2 so i add 15ml to deal with the chlorine and other harmfull metals in the water. I also added a bottle of freindly bacteria to try help speed up the cycle as something obviously killed the BB in my filteration. I have more than enough bio media in my sump to deal with the load and there is more than enough oxygen/circulation in the water too. The temp in the tank is 22dc sometimes reaching 24-26 (its very cold out these days) temp does not fluctuate all the time it usually sticks to 22-24. This all probably looks a little messed up in the way its wrote but im trying to give as much info as poss so i can get an instant solution to my problem. I have salt in the med cabinet but not sure weither to use it or not as i know catfish are scaleless and it can do more harm than good but also know that the salt is good for getting rid of internal parasites.

Please help guys im really stuck on this 1 and dont want to start using crazy amounts of meds

Thanks in advance





Ok i found this, thank you lupin for making this easier as my earlier post was all over the place with lots of thoughts here and there so i will try my best to answer all of these questions as detailed as poss



Q,1. What is the size of your tank?

A,1. 8x2x2 236G/ 1200L approx

Q,2. What are your water parameters? State the brand of test kit used.

A,2. PH=6.0.....AMMONIA=0.25.....NITRATE=0.50......NITR ATE=40ppm. Test kit used is an API high range low range test kit. The ammonia a week ago was off the charts, there was a massive spike in toxins.

Q,3. Is your aquarium set up freshwater or brackish water?

A,3. setup is freshwater but heard somewhere should be slighlty brakish???

Q,4. How long the aquarium has been set up?

A,4. Approx 7 mnths due to a house move.

Q,5. What fish do you have? How many are in your tank? How big are they? How long have you had them?

A,5. 3xrtc, 2@ 1.5' largest@ 2'... 1xcommon pleco@ 11"... 1xmarble catfish@ 1.5'... 1xalbino oscar@ 10"... 2xred bellied pacu@ 11"each... 1xalbino channel fish@ 1.5'. Thats 9 fish in total and ive had all fish for 1 yr, pacu and channell fish 6mnths or less.

Q,6. Were the fish placed under quarantine period (minus the first batch from the point wherein the tank is ready to accommodate the inhabitants)?

A,6. No tank big enough to quarantine.

Q,7. What temperature is the tank water currently?

A,7. currently at 22c, trying to get it upto 24-26c.

Q,8. Are there live plants in the aquarium?

A,8. No live plants at all.

Q,9. What filter are you using? State brand, maintenance routine and power capacity.

A,9. Im using a 4x1x18" sump with 3 baffles 4 chambers. There is filter wool and sponges (jad matting) in the 1st chamber, bio balls and lots of ceramic noodles in the 2nd chamber, scrubbies more ceramic noodles and an anti ammonia media (looks like tiny shards of green slate in a sack) in the 3rd chamber and finally the last chamber has a 5000LPH pond pump. I also have an Fluval fx5 running on the sump. I clean both out every 5-6mnths with water from the tank. I have also put some extra filteration at the left side of the tank for extra circulation, 1xfluval 4+ and a bubble block.

Q,10. Any other equipment used (aside from heater and filter which are two very important components of the tank)?

A,10. No other equipment used.

Q,11. Does your aquarium receive natural sunlight at any given part of the day? What is your lighting schedule (assuming you do not rely on sunlight for our viewing pleasure)?

A,11. There is natural sunlight that hits the tank at around 4-5pm in the evening usually lasting around 1.5hrs depending on the sky conditions, if its constant i tend to close the blinds on the windows to stop it blasting in. Im using a normal dual lighting system which u would find on any garage or kitchen ceiling, it has 1 4ft neon blue bulb in it, i did have to white bulbs running but decided to remove them. All bulbs i use are aquarium freindly, i never use household tubes for aquarium lighting.

Q,12. When did you perform your last water change and how much water was changed? How often do you change your water? Do you vacuum the substrate?

A,12. My last water change was 2 days ago 2/10/2009, I done a 50% change for approx 3 days prior and on the day i mentioned i also syphoned the gravel on of those occasions. I do a 50% water change every sunday afternoon and only just started using Waterlife poolshield dechlorinator and Waterlife bacterlife freindly bacteria to try speed up the bb.

Q,13. What foods do you provide your fish? What is the feeding schedule?

A,13. Squid, muscles, prawns every 2-3 days, any left over food is taken out within 30-45mins.

Q,14. What unusual signs have you observed in your fish?

A,14. My largest rtc has heavy breathing and a redness in his mouth, also looks like ulser formations inside the mouth, Gills also started to curl but are not getting any worse as far. 1 of my smaller rtc's is also showing the same signs but without the gill curl, he also has a redness next to his tail, looks like a red bloch (veins).

Q,15. Have you treated your fish ahead of diagnosis? If so, what treatments did you use? State your reasons for planning ahead of proper diagnosis.

A,15. I havnt treated them with anything yet as i thought it might/could make matters worse.


Hope this helps alot, this is all the information i have at present, if there is any further progress or spikes i will be sure to post them and thanks to lupin and othermembers for making this easier.

 

[bigcols]

Ive taken a few pics for u guys to see if u have seen this before as i have never seen it on any fish i have owned, please guys help me out here im at my wits end trying to find a solution to this prob

I have also put the same thread on MFK to see if any1 from there can help me i would say im getting a bit desperate now like :1zhelp::1zhelp::1zhelp::help2: please!!!!!

 

[Cerianthus]

Although it has been quite a whilte since I have kept and raised RTCs to 36" or so from 3-4", I remember I faced similar situations from time to time until comprehended water chemitry in referenced to pH/GH.KH (simply put, stablization of pH).
I do have few questions though.

1. Could it be the recent addtion/changes in aquarium additives such as dechlorinator, BB addtives ?

2. If using H/R pH kit, how did you register such low pH? I dont think API H/R test Kit chart goes that low? Correct me if I am wrong?


I dont know exactly why/how your tank lost BB thus I can only assume the following possibilities:.

1. Massive water changes performed using tap water and/or massive cleaning of equipments, both done at same time. I have not used straight tap in few decades but if i was to use any, I would not expect any dechlorinator to work instantaneously when treating half of your tank amt (about 150G). Thus even when one does such massive water changes w/o any after effects for many yrs, there could be one instant that one may experience as you are experiencing.
I prefer to perform smaller but more frequent pwc. I personally always aged the water for day or two (simple circulation in reserve) before using regardless of using dechlorinator or not.

2. If using tap water, your local municipal Water Supplier may have added different and/or extra addtives. (doubt it since Summer has passed).
Check with your local water suppliers!

3. Perform simple pH, NH3 and NO2 tests on new tap water. If NH3/NO2 are negative, add one drop of your BB additives into same vial to see colors change. If colors do change, could it be that this may be the culpit for high NH3?

4. And this is what I think has happended provided that your pH is at 6.0 or may be was lower than 6.0.
It seems when pH drops low enough (usually lower than 6.0, exactly what level, I cant say since seen various levels), either one or both BB tend to die off or goes dormant thus no oxidation of ammonia (NH3) takes place, the conversion of NH3 to Nitrite (NO2)) or both BB may ceases to function.
Once pH level is improved via water changes and/or chemicals, NH3 oxidizing bacteria would start to reestablish again thus NO2 is registering.
If memory serves BB which converts NO2 to nitrate cant reestablish/function well in presence of high NH3. Thus two phases during cycling.

Please do remember that when pH is at such low as yours, most of NH3 present in you water is virtually non toxic, even at high level as yours. So NO NEED to PANIC!! Just perform small but frequent water changes which will raise pH gradually (provided new water pH is higher than 6.0) and also will lower the NH3/NO2 levels. ** Catching 3 birds with one stone**. Age of dechlorinate well before using thus does not hamper with reesablishing process of BB.

As far as (1) RTC which is showing some odd sysmtoms, high respiration, red streaks, etc could be symptoms of being exposed to low low pH. In this case NH3 does not play role since in NH4+ form.

Your case is classic indication that fish within same species will display different tolerance. Thus never assume when one says my fish tolerated this condition and that condition that yours would tolerate the same. Symtoms usually develops with one and another will follow unless conditions are corrected.

Without going into further detail how extreme pH plays roles in fish physiological/anatomical functions, I do know for fact that low low pH has tremendous effects on fish's respiration (CO2 and O2 exchanges) and excretory fuction (release of toxic NH3 gas in blood thru gills). You can do some research on this matter if you wish.
Can you imagine when gills are damged due to exposure to low low pH, such exchanges/release cant take place properly which means accumulation of CO2/NH3 for example, which will eventually cause illness and death of fish.

I cant say for sure what it is since no pics of sick RTC but FYI, my choice for internal bleeding/reds treaks would be Kanamyacin in pristine water condition. Right now, unfortunately, our water is not.
Q/T is best for sick one to be treated but your call. YOu can just perform daily small PWC to improve the water condition. Fish have surprised me many many time as they recover on its own given the right conditions. I will tak about how I jump in and swam with the fish to move water thru its gills to bring back to life on another time.

As far as adding salt, need more info as to if you were using before and how much were added on regualar bases.


Pardon me for long comments and hope all goes well!

 

[bigcols]

Although it has been quite a whilte since I have kept and raised RTCs to 36" or so from 3-4", I remember I faced similar situations from time to time until comprehended water chemitry in referenced to pH/GH.KH (simply put, stablization of pH).
I do have few questions though.

1. Could it be the recent addtion/changes in aquarium additives such as dechlorinator, BB addtives ?

2. If using H/R pH kit, how did you register such low pH? I dont think API H/R test Kit chart goes that low? Correct me if I am wrong?


I dont know exactly why/how your tank lost BB thus I can only assume the following possibilities:.

1. Massive water changes performed using tap water and/or massive cleaning of equipments, both done at same time. I have not used straight tap in few decades but if i was to use any, I would not expect any dechlorinator to work instantaneously when treating half of your tank amt (about 150G). Thus even when one does such massive water changes w/o any after effects for many yrs, there could be one instant that one may experience as you are experiencing.
I prefer to perform smaller but more frequent pwc. I personally always aged the water for day or two (simple circulation in reserve) before using regardless of using dechlorinator or not.

2. If using tap water, your local municipal Water Supplier may have added different and/or extra addtives. (doubt it since Summer has passed).
Check with your local water suppliers!

3. Perform simple pH, NH3 and NO2 tests on new tap water. If NH3/NO2 are negative, add one drop of your BB additives into same vial to see colors change. If colors do change, could it be that this may be the culpit for high NH3?

4. And this is what I think has happended provided that your pH is at 6.0 or may be was lower than 6.0.
It seems when pH drops low enough (usually lower than 6.0, exactly what level, I cant say since seen various levels), either one or both BB tend to die off or goes dormant thus no oxidation of ammonia (NH3) takes place, the conversion of NH3 to Nitrite (NO2)) or both BB may ceases to function.
Once pH level is improved via water changes and/or chemicals, NH3 oxidizing bacteria would start to reestablish again thus NO2 is registering.
If memory serves BB which converts NO2 to nitrate cant reestablish/function well in presence of high NH3. Thus two phases during cycling.

Please do remember that when pH is at such low as yours, most of NH3 present in you water is virtually non toxic, even at high level as yours. So NO NEED to PANIC!! Just perform small but frequent water changes which will raise pH gradually (provided new water pH is higher than 6.0) and also will lower the NH3/NO2 levels. ** Catching 3 birds with one stone**. Age of dechlorinate well before using thus does not hamper with reesablishing process of BB.

As far as (1) RTC which is showing some odd sysmtoms, high respiration, red streaks, etc could be symptoms of being exposed to low low pH. In this case NH3 does not play role since in NH4+ form.

Your case is classic indication that fish within same species will display different tolerance. Thus never assume when one says my fish tolerated this condition and that condition that yours would tolerate the same. Symtoms usually develops with one and another will follow unless conditions are corrected.

Without going into further detail how extreme pH plays roles in fish physiological/anatomical functions, I do know for fact that low low pH has tremendous effects on fish's respiration (CO2 and O2 exchanges) and excretory fuction (release of toxic NH3 gas in blood thru gills). You can do some research on this matter if you wish.
Can you imagine when gills are damged due to exposure to low low pH, such exchanges/release cant take place properly which means accumulation of CO2/NH3 for example, which will eventually cause illness and death of fish.

I cant say for sure what it is since no pics of sick RTC but FYI, my choice for internal bleeding/reds treaks would be Kanamyacin in pristine water condition. Right now, unfortunately, our water is not.
Q/T is best for sick one to be treated but your call. YOu can just perform daily small PWC to improve the water condition. Fish have surprised me many many time as they recover on its own given the right conditions. I will tak about how I jump in and swam with the fish to move water thru its gills to bring back to life on another time.

As far as adding salt, need more info as to if you were using before and how much were added on regualar bases.


Pardon me for long comments and hope all goes well!

Thanks for the responce, My water params were off the scale before i started treating with declorinator and bb aditives, the reason i started using those 2 were the huge water changes i have been doing, i normally only do a small change twice a week or 1 50% change on a weekly basis.

The api test kit i used also has L/R and H/R cards in the aswell as amonia nitrite and nitrate cards, the L/R ph card only goes as low as 6.0 and thats currently what my ph is at now so for some reason it is constantly dropping and will not stabalise, also the ammonia level is slowly rising again, im begining to think that i could be overstocked with fish just like a member from MFK suggested earlier this week. Like you say as did he, i really need/could do with getting the ph upto normal levels again. to be honest i dont even know why they all spiked so quick as i was doing all i should have been doing to look after my fish. I dont have anything to get the ph back to 7.0 and thats whats bugging me so much all i can do at the moment is do water changes which i think will only be stressing the fish even more than what they are. I feel a little helpless atm with the way things are but i cant give up not just for me but for my fish as they really need me right now. As for the question about the salt, well i have only just put enough in to cover 50G of water as thats all i had left in my cupboard, i thought it would harm the fish as they are scaleless but then i thought if it helps them breath a little better then why not use it. U did give out alot of information some of which i didnt understand likes no2 no3 that sort of ting, im assuming u meant ph and amonia, nitrites, nitrates. I was told that because the ph is so low that the high amonia levels will be none toxic therefore not really harm the fish but it can imo. We have young babys here also which isnt giving me much time to do anything really, although i am trying my hardest to keep up with things. A small update though, i noticed my rtc sort of barking, not making a sound but barking all the same, gills were flaring wide and mouth was opening and closing rapidly. Dont know if thats a breathing problem but most certainly looks like it now.

 

[KarlTh]

You don't have anything to raise the pH? No baking soda?

But the important thing here is to raise it as gradually as possible. Given where you are your water's probably straight out of a peat bog and has very little KH. My approach would be to test the KH of tank and tap. If the tap has a reasonable KH, then do a series of water changes over a few days - at all times monitoring ammonia and pH in the tank to ensure you're not looking at a toxic combination. If not, then do similarly but treat the water used for the changes with bicarb to get a reasonable KH (say 2-3).

 

[bigcols]

You don't have anything to raise the pH? No baking soda?

But the important thing here is to raise it as gradually as possible. Given where you are your water's probably straight out of a peat bog and has very little KH. My approach would be to test the KH of tank and tap. If the tap has a reasonable KH, then do a series of water changes over a few days - at all times monitoring ammonia and pH in the tank to ensure you're not looking at a toxic combination. If not, then do similarly but treat the water used for the changes with bicarb to get a reasonable KH (say 2-3).

Sorry no baking soda as yet, all the supermarkets were closed at 4pm today and like i said we got lil kiddys here too so not much time, im running from my fish to kids all time so its hard work to juggle the both atm. can i just ask what u mean by KH testing, ive never had to test that before or atleast i dont think i have. i have tested the tap water and the params are not far off perfect imo, ph=7.0....amonia=0....nitirite=0 and nitrate=10ppm so those reading to me should sort my prob out with a couple 50% water changes like i was doing. Now my rtc's have redness all over their skin, the white parts anyway and they are breathng really bad flaring the gills and mouth in a barking manner, its not looking good at all right now and im really getting desperate to know what this illness is so that i can try and treat it asap b4 it gets any worse and i loose them. afterall they are my babys also so they only have me to take care of them.

 

[Cerianthus]

What I learned over few decades was trying doing smaller but more frequent water changes is best way to keep water stablized at all times to my best ability.. Yes I do agree that massive water changes are stress factors but you seems to have no choice but to perform water changes. I've done 3 or 4 pwc daily as needed basis with aged water. This small water changes will ensure no sudden changes w/in water chemistry but will lower ammonia level (dilution). You just need to remove more than what your tank produces thus several small pwc a day when needed. That means cut down on feeding, just enough to sustain them until tank reestablishes.

Like I said , any massive changes can/will slow down the reestablishment of BB regardless of dechlorinator. Massive rainfalls in industrial area can and did affect our environment. SLow changes are definitely better fast/sudden changes.

As far as salt as sort of treatment, I would not add any right now when never been added to tank previously. Only time when I will add salt to tank is either been using previously or in case where HIGH nitrite is registered. Your .50 PPM is NOt high and besides I dont want to you to make any errors at this point.

Usually pH of the tap is higher than 6.0 so small but frequent water changes will ensure rasing of pH and lowering of NH3 and NO2 at the same time. Unless needed (pH of tap 6.0 or lower which I doubt), would not use Baking Soda in midst of crisis. JUST Keep in mind, if pH is raise too fast, it is more hard on the already stressed out fish and on top of that toxicity of Ammonia will increses as pH rises.

Will discuss KH/GH later on if you wish.

Hope all goes well.