Endlers: Locking in a new trait - Line Breed or Selective Breed?

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phreeflow

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Mar 28, 2009
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Long Thread Warning: :dance2:

I have a large group of around 300+ wild type endlers from Swampriver Aquatics that I've bred over the last 4 years. I've enjoyed minor variations here and there but recently I noticed 5 identical males with a pretty noticeable variance :jaw-dropping: so I've separated them from the group.

I'd really like to lock in this trait and have them breed true but I don't fully understand the dynamics of genetics involved to make this happen. Please help...:1zhelp:

Here's what I know about line breeding, you select the best male and breed him with two virgin females. Put each female in a separate tank, take their first drop of fry, discard the female, raise out the fry and pick the best females to breed back with dad. Somewhere in this F2 generation, I should see some that look like dad. Then continue to breed the F2 brothers with sisters and cull along the way. Do this with both lines and at some point, cross them back to each other to keep them "fresh".

I'm not certain if this is correct :huh:so please help clarify if I'm missing something as I really don't want to lose this trait. If I am correct, it sounds like I'll need several tanks to do this and I just don't have the time or space so....I'm hoping I can selective breed to accomplish the same result.

Here's what I know about selective breeding: I take the best 2 or 3 males with the mutation and harem breed them with about 6 virgin females. After the females drop their fry I take them out and grow out the fry. Cull all males and move 6 best daughters back with their dads. Get rid of those gals after they drop and raise out their fry. Separate the boys/girls and pick the best 3 brother with the best 6 sisters and let them continue breeding...and just continue to cull the ones that don't have the trait?? Will this work...I'm thinking I'll only need 2 tanks to pull this off.

Please help me understand the difference and the pros and cons of each. If there's an even better way, do tell as Again, I really really don't want to lose this trait...in 4 years with literally hundreds of endlers, this is the first time I've seen a noticeable mutation...wild type, kept pure with no guppies mixed in.

Thanks in advance!
 
Eek, that's a lot of culling... I don't feel so bad keeping bettas with my Endler's to help with fry control, but I guess that's like "circle of life" versus - well, how do you cull?

Anyway, I'm sorry I'm not addressing your questions. Good luck on your experiment! I'd love to see pics of these "variance" males you've found.
 
Ok, I guess the way I explained it sounded horrible. Oddly, I just had this discussion yesterday as to the official definition of culling in regards to shrimp.

Most serious breeders cull and from what I've read, it has a different meaning to everyone. Some euthanize their fish, others sell their culls, some give them away, and still others play a part in the "circle of life" and feed the fry to other fish. I have no idea what culling officially means or entails.

For me, it simply means I throw them back into the general population of endlers to continue on. The only reason I'd euthanize a fish is if it's deformed in some manner...gill plates don't close properly, hump back, etc...then they are fed to something else.

I'm just trying to focus on a specific trait in the given tanks that I'm working with. That said, I really need some help on this project....anyone?
 
this is the way i would do it,.. and just keep all those that exibit the trait,.. this is the way it works in farming so it should work for fish,..
 
All breeders cull, it's almost the definition of the practice. The puppy that doesn't have the right color pattern for the breed becomes a pet with a neuter contract rather than a show-home sale. The cow that doesn't produce as much milk as her sisters becomes, well, hamburger. (actually her sisters will too, just much later in life.)

The tough part about Phree's project is that the trait (color) is only expressed in males but there is no way (I know of) to know if the gene is carried by the male or female parent or requires a combination. Females are therefore very hard to select for breeding/nonbreeding status. For the initial population it is necessarily random. By the F2 generation you would about need to keep each female with her own fry in a separate tank (a 1 or 1.5g would be fine for this stage) and then check as each fry drop matures the number of males produced with the desired trait.

This would speed up the selection process dramatically. You would also use the females from the drop with the highest desired-male production rate for the F3 generation, raising the odds that those females at least carry the desired gene.

Phee, what did your founding stock look like? I am not sure what a "wild-type endler" is, appearance-wise.
 
Hi Phreeflow
Pure Wild Endlers and Wild "Type" are not the same thing! You did however mention that they are PURE and never been crossed with P.Reticulata!
As for your question both ways can be done with just 2 ten gal tanks! I've created my own strains many times over now! ( www.wildguppystore.com ) You seem to know more than you think! I personally would use the "Harem" technique! One thing though. There is NO NEED to discard the mommas! They should be used to back cross with ANY potential offspring!
 
i have hear all about the them males only carry the genes,.. it bull,..
in farm animals an ton of research to back it up i have proven over my 30 years that it is carries in the females i had,..

and again in the female guppies i had they also carries the genes i wanted ,.. so i believe its both,. male and female i had female guppies that carried the colors i wanted ,.. so i would keep daughters and sons,.. and see,..
 
XanAvaloni said:
The tough part about Phree's project is that the trait (color) is only expressed in males but there is no way (I know of) to know if the gene is carried by the male or female parent or requires a combination. Females are therefore very hard to select for breeding/nonbreeding status. For the initial population it is necessarily random. By the F2 generation you would about need to keep each female with her own fry in a separate tank (a 1 or 1.5g would be fine for this stage) and then check as each fry drop matures the number of males produced with the desired trait.

This would speed up the selection process dramatically. You would also use the females from the drop with the highest desired-male production rate for the F3 generation, raising the odds that those females at least carry the desired gene.

Phee, what did your founding stock look like? I am not sure what a "wild-type endler" is, appearance-wise.
Click to expand...


This is exactly my problem...i don't know what traits the females carry so I'm literally shooting in the dark. Therefore, I'm thinking that I have to linebreed using just two females so I can keep good records and speed up the selection process. However, this would be so labor intensive and take so many tanks that I may not be able to do so. Hence, I'm looking into purely selective breeding.

I'll be putting up a pic of my endlers in a short while. I'm sorry to confuse everyone with the terminology "wild-type"...I just mean that they are pure, wild endlers...meaning they have not been hybridized with any other species, specifically guppies. That is what's so exciting about this project...this mutation is from a wild group without any outside intervention of guppy genetics.
 
NYCguppydude said:
Hi Phreeflow
Pure Wild Endlers and Wild "Type" are not the same thing! You did however mention that they are PURE and never been crossed with P.Reticulata!
As for your question both ways can be done with just 2 ten gal tanks! I've created my own strains many times over now! ( www.wildguppystore.com ) You seem to know more than you think! I personally would use the "Harem" technique! One thing though. There is NO NEED to discard the mommas! They should be used to back cross with ANY potential offspring!
Click to expand...

Again, sorry for the confusion regarding the phrase "wild type"....specifically, mine are pure endlers, direct descendants of a wild population somewhere in Venezuela through SwampRiverAquatics. Never met another fish in their life except some otocinclus.

Wow...I checked out your website and I really like what you're doing there in your fishroom. In particular, I'm interested in what you did with your Lime Green Costa Rican guppies. You mention that you extensively linebred this species by breeding the green males with females (how many did you use) and then gathered ALL the female fry from the first generation and crossed them back with the father. So in this instance, how many initial females did you use to breed with how many males that exhibited the phenotype you were after? Meaning, was the initial group 1 best male with 2 females or a harem with a number of green males and a large number of females?

Secondly, when you bred back ALL of the female fry with the dad/dads...it seems you also used the harem breeding approach. What did you do with the females after they dropped fry...keep them, get rid of them? What did you do with all the fry...separate them male/female, cull males not showing the right pattern, etc?

Lastly, how did you finally lock this trait? Was it already locked by this point or did you have to start breeding the brothers and sisters together? Was the original male utilized after this point?

I'm confused...please elaborate this process for me. Thanks!
 
dixienut said:
i have hear all about the them males only carry the genes,.. it bull,..
in farm animals an ton of research to back it up i have proven over my 30 years that it is carries in the females i had,..

and again in the female guppies i had they also carries the genes i wanted ,.. so i believe its both,. male and female i had female guppies that carried the colors i wanted ,.. so i would keep daughters and sons,.. and see,..
Click to expand...

I'd love to hear more about this as I'm completely clueless aside from what i learned in high school many years ago and what I've read online. My problem is: "how can I lock-in this mutation that exists in only 4-5 of my males and may never happen again, using females that show no visible phenotype (makes it really hard to select)?...I basically want them to breed true."

The only thing I can think of is to grow out some teeny female fry to make sure they are virgins and breed them with the males. But what next?
 
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