Wyite- my respect for you just dropped to a very low level. You have no clue for how much I sold my fish, how they were acquired and from what source nor for how much I sold them. You have no clue at all yet you have a very strong opinion about something you apparently have almost no knowledge about.
Do you sell them for $50.00 a fish or less? If not, don't try to take the role of a martyr who has been unfairly misjudged. If you do, then you'll receive my full apology in writing on this website. And if you have a lower opinion of me because I called you out about being conservation oriented, then so be it. I told you I respect your experience and your right to charge what you want. But I strongly believe you aren't a conservationist and I'll stand behind that.
Here are the things which you have chosen to ignore. Let's say you bought 13 fish for $3,500. You took a risk that they might die, that they might not spawn etc. Now let's suppose you are successful and you bred the fish and have offspring to sell. Now the fish you bought are being sold by others who spawn them as well as those who got them illegally removed from Brazil. Moreover, for any number of reasons, these fish are not widely available and only live in one part of one river in the world.
What does this have to do with getting the species into the hands of more hobbyists to ensure survival for a reasonable price for conservation purposes? Nothing. This is a strawman argument. It is irrelevant and doesn't refute anything I've said.
Now these fish used to sell for about $150 retail (but niot from stores). But you want to be a hero so you offer them for $50 each. Do you have any clue what will happen. People will line up to buy them from you, the problem is those people will mostly be resellers. They will gladly pay you for your altruism and then turn around and sell those fish for $150. They will make you the fool of the day.
Did you read my last post that included an example of how to organize a breeding program? You don't just give them to anybody at first. It has to start somewhere. Someone has to say enough. And if the market for zebras is so cutthroat that there is nobody that you trust to be honest and not sell them when you're trying to organize a breeding program, then that just supports that there is no sincerity in any claim that breeders are conservation oriented.
Next, you have no idea what I did with all my offspring nor the proceeds or even what I actually charged. You seem to have no idea about the facts surrounding these fish at all. I am not even sure I want to bother trying to educate you.
Don't patronize me. It's demeaning to both of us. I understand very well what the challenges are and I am well aware of the history of this fish in the hobby, as well as how the zebra has become endangered in the wild. You're not the only one that does his home work. The fact is, I don't really care what you did with what or how much you sold them for, unless you're getting them to as many hobbyists as you can to support a sincere breeding program. Not just to those who can afford insane prices. Have you? Again, read my last post that included an example of how to organize a breeding program.
1. Prior to Brazil instituting the "approved lists" there were no regulations regarding the removal of wild fish. There are more fw in Brazil than we can know. So the solution was to create a list of those fish allowed to be exported. it is often called the Positive List. Had this been done the other way, i.e. a list of fish not allowed to be exported, then any fish not yet discovered and described would have been legal to export.
I know about the approved export list. Do you really think it didn't affect cichlid hobbyists?
2. My original zebras were purchased as a proven breeding group in early 2006. The original owner had accumulated them over several years and grown them to spawning size. All of these fish came out of Brazil before they began having the approved lists.
Okay. That's cool.
3. I sold my fish for less than the going rate, I required buyers to take a minimum of 5 fish and a maximum of 8. Only folks wanting to breed them were the likely buyers and I also screened potential buyers to make sure they were able to keep and try to spawn them. I later upped the max. to 10 fish and if one bought ten, I added an extra fish to the box. Nobody else did this as far as I know.
Great. You sell your fish for less than going rate. You screen potential buyers to ensure they will be able to breed these fish. That's a good start for a breeding program. You had max and min quantities. Excellent. Did you drop the price so that the guy who may only be able to pay $30.00 or $50.00 could acquire them and help expand the captive population? What about the guy who is sincere about trying to breed them but may only be able to afford three?
4. I do not usually make a big deal about this because I do it for its value not for the credit. But take a look on Planetcatfish and see who the larger donors are to the site. Or check with the folks that host the bi-annual Catfish Convention and ask how much I spent on sponorships for the event. Check with the NEC for the same thing. You will find I have donated a lot of zebras for conservation causes. 100% of the proceeds are donated. You would also see that when the NEC recently offered to match donations by member clubs or their individual members to project Piaba up to a total of $1,000 in such donations. I sent them $250 so they got $500. How much did any of you reading this donate? I also sent $250 to a fish rescue operation last Dec.They rescue the big fish hobbyists who don't know any better get stuck with and have to give away of kill.
My sincere apologies. You have done more for the hobby than I gave you credit for. I have misjudged your contributions.
5. It is nice to opine about changing the conditions rather than removing the fish. But this clearly indicates you have no clue about how things work in Brazil. In order to dam the Xingu river the Brazilian authorities claimed there were very few species in the river. This simply was not the case. What there was not were a lot of identified species. So they used this argument to risk wiping them out. This does not compare to how they treated the native population that had lived along the rive for millenia. They were flooded out. The Brazilian authorities do not care about anything but the money the electricity from the damn provides. It is mostly for business not residential use. Change the conditions/ I guess you mean cancel the dam project? You need to wise up if you think that was a possibility.
I know very well how things work in Brazil. It's as bad as the U.S. when it comes to ignoring environmental impact in the name of development, which I'm using here as a catchall for construction, energy development, and other human related projects that further human needs to the detriment of the environment. You're not the only one who reads and keeps up on current events. I know the dam isn't going anywhere. I am well aware of how Brazil has ignored science to justify development. I know how they have treated and ignored the native people, and dismissed the protestations of both scientists and thee native population without a reasonable review. Litigation has gotten the native tribes nowhere. I know very well that the Brazilian government is only concerned about development and dismisses anything that impedes progress. The reality is that that isn't any different than any other country. I live in the heart of both energy production central and one of the wildest states in the U.S. There are species right here that are endangered, for the same reasons. I've watched the reclassification of unique species to subspecies, alteration to a paper on greater the prairie chicken to reflect lower population and habitat requirements, and half-assed solutions for to counter disrupted migration routes, all in the name of development. The U.S. government is no different. This is good information, but I'm not sure how it relates to anything I've said.
6. Next, you need to get educated about zebra reproduction. Firstly, they take a few years to reach sexual maturity. Next, they have very small spawns, 15 eggs is a lot. It takes some time to get them a safe selling size. Finally, they only spawn when they want to, not when keepers try to trigger them. I was extremely lucky. People way more skilled than I have failed. All of this combined with their being found in only one section of one river makes the price what it was/is.
I've read plenty on zebra pleco reproduction. I'm not ignorant of the complications. The reality is this isn't a valid excuse to not further distribution to more people at a reasonable price There are plenty of other species that are just as hard to breed and that produce broods that are that small. Granted most cichlids do mature at an earlier age, but when only 6 to 10 individuals in a brood mature and they only breed one or twice a year, it's not like the market is being flooded. Again, read my last post that included an example of how to organize a breeding program.
7. If one wants to buy zebras today they can easily find tank raised fish. How the heck do you think that is possible? The fish did not suddenly spring into existence in aquariums. The started out in the wild. So did all the fish any of us keep in our tanks.
Yeah. I know fish today are tank raised. But how much are those tank-raised fish? I'm okay with screening buyers to ensure that they'll breed the fish they get. I do the same thing with my cichlids. But are these tank-raised fish priced low enough that the guy or gal who makes $12.00 an hour and can only afford $200.00 for a breeding group of fish can buy five the minimum five your require? You know, I've never seen any mention of how much you charge for your fish. How much do you charge?
8. If you had bothered to watch Leandro's vid I had posted you might have more of a clue about what you are saying regarding these fish. You might realize that the blame for most of the issues you mention lies directly with the Brazilian authorities. Academics and professional fish folks tried to organize captive breeding in Brazil which would have avoided all of the isses and problem. they tried to show the diversity of species there actually were in the Xingu. But the government was stubborn. It is only in the most recent past that there are such operation now in Brazil. I am not sure they have gone beyond the research stage to being allowed to export the offspring.
Already discussed the Brazilian government and the flaws. I've seen at least one documentary on this subject, as well as reading one very comprehensive article in National Geographic. I know I've seen other documentaries that at least had a segment on the Xingu. And like I said, the Xingu isn't the only waterway suffering from (probably) irreversible damage in the name of development, whether it be a dam for hydroelectric production, pollution to poor water treatment practices or siltation due to agricultural run-off. There are other causes for this damage as well. We know how we got here; it can't be undone. Why are we lamenting of what is when we should be planning for what will be?
9. You would also know there are several major farming operations in Asia now producing zebras in large numbers. If you want to buy a cheap zebra all you have to do is spend about 45-50/fish and buy the minimum of 50 fish and you can resell them for whatever you want. We did this for less because we got 300+. We offered fish to folks registered for the NEC at $85/fish. Most shops do not spend well over $10k on a single species. You also might know that these days most zebras sold are tank/farm raised. Of course, if you import and then lose some, too bad it's your loss.
And? I do know all of this. How does this justify selling zebras for hundreds here in the U.S. versus getting the species into the hands of more people?
One more thing re the big farming operations. They claim they bought all their breeding stock before the fish were not illegal to remove from Brazil. I doubt this can be proved, so I take it with a grain of salt. In any case, they had to get many 100s of fish from the wild to set up an operation producing 1,000 fish/week when 15 or even 20 is the maximum number of fish per spawn and the males take about a month from egg laying to when they release free swimming fry. The math is simple 1,000/15 = 67 dads. This also means they needed at least 34 females for a total of 101 adults. Due to how the fish are caught they are not sexed at that time. males are easier to catch so collectors need a lot more than 101 fish to be safe. And this does not account for any losses or the fact that the fish do not spawn on demand. Farms need many 100s of zebras to have the kind of production they do.
And? Do you think cichlids are all that different? That breeding rare species is easy? That getting a pair is a given? That there aren't any risks or losses involved? That fish don't kill each other if you get your sexing wrong? In this respect, I empathize with you more than you realize, but quit justifying prices because of how "hard it is". It is a failure to get zebras into the hands of more hobbyists by making them affordable that I disagree with. None of what you point here justifies preventing the species from getting into the hands of more hobbyists to ensure survival. The biggest obstacle is the cost, preventing some talented people from acquiring the species. Breeders here in the U.S. could develop a breeding program that was friendly to getting the species in as many hands as possible for reasonable prices. That is conservation. And that doesn't include selling fish for hundreds of dollars.
10. If you had any clue instead of jumping on your high horse, you would have known much of the above. Of course you could not know how I sold anything or how I came by my fish. As far as I know most of mine were not illegally removed from Brazil. You would also know about CITES: " There is no way to prove any given fish was born in the wild or in a tank or on a farm after the fact.
Again, don't patronize me. I'm not as ignorant as you may like to believe, nor are a lot of folks on this site. The fact is, I've just expressed what many people think. And it appears you don't like it.
CITES (the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora) is an international agreement between governments. Its aim is to ensure that international trade in specimens of wild animals and plants does not threaten the survival of the species." CITES has something called the Appendix II List. Species listed in Appendix II cannot move between the signatory countries unless they are accompanied by a certificate of origin. This certifies the source of the animals and prevent illegal fish from being traded easily. And yes, to bring in those 300+ zebras we had such certification. This listing effectively put a damper on the illegal export of zebras from Brazil. year ago I could find several ways to buy illegal wild zebras had I wanted to do so, Today I would have to do a lot of work to find them, if I even could. But I can find all the zebras i might want tank raised. If I were willing to sell to some to you I could as mine have been spawning again. So, in a few months I will be selling zebras again.
I've kept CITES listed cichlids, I'm well aware of what it is, what says. I know what the regulations for importing and keeping CITES listed species are, at Levels I, II and III. But this is irrelevant to getting zebras into the hands of more people in the U.S. Again, don't patronize me.
Here is one last question to answer. It is too soon to know if many of the species unique to the Big Bend and below it will survive in the wild or not. According to Leandro and his colleagues, for zebras it is right on the edge. It is still very possible that the combination of the dam and the remaining illegal fish trade will cause the species numbers to reach the tipping point. So what do you think will have made more sense in the long run, not to remove any of the fish from the wild and have them end up extinct or to remove some, (best done in a controlled fashion) and to allow hobbyists and professional fish farmers to insure the species survived in aquariums across the globe?
If it's too soon, then how do you justify removing any fish from the river in the name of conservation? 300 fish is 3% of the 10,000 needed to ensure the species survives in the wild. How can you justify you're comment about getting as many fish out of the river as possible to help save the species if there is still hope?
Seriously? How can you honestly justify removing fish from the wild population if there is still hope for it's survival in the wild? The intent of conservation is to keep a species in it's natural habitat, not to pull out as many individuals as possible so that it survives in captivity alone. Removing animals from a wild population to save it in captivity should be close to the last step taken.
So I have two words for Wyite and those who chimed in with him and they are definitely not Happy Birthday.
Okay.
If you want to learn, have a read here https://e360.yale.edu/features/base...-can-hobbyists-save-rare-fish-from-extinction if you do you will read the below. I believe you kept Africans for some time?
I've actually been to Greg Sage's place. Erie is only 80 miles or so from Cheyenne. I bought a few livebearers, from him.
WYite
Do you sell them for $50.00 a fish or less? If not, don't try to take the role of a martyr who has been unfairly misjudged. If you do, then you'll receive my full apology in writing on this website. And if you have a lower opinion of me because I called you out about being conservation oriented, then so be it. I told you I respect your experience and your right to charge what you want. But I strongly believe you aren't a conservationist and I'll stand behind that.
Here are the things which you have chosen to ignore. Let's say you bought 13 fish for $3,500. You took a risk that they might die, that they might not spawn etc. Now let's suppose you are successful and you bred the fish and have offspring to sell. Now the fish you bought are being sold by others who spawn them as well as those who got them illegally removed from Brazil. Moreover, for any number of reasons, these fish are not widely available and only live in one part of one river in the world.
What does this have to do with getting the species into the hands of more hobbyists to ensure survival for a reasonable price for conservation purposes? Nothing. This is a strawman argument. It is irrelevant and doesn't refute anything I've said.
Now these fish used to sell for about $150 retail (but niot from stores). But you want to be a hero so you offer them for $50 each. Do you have any clue what will happen. People will line up to buy them from you, the problem is those people will mostly be resellers. They will gladly pay you for your altruism and then turn around and sell those fish for $150. They will make you the fool of the day.
Did you read my last post that included an example of how to organize a breeding program? You don't just give them to anybody at first. It has to start somewhere. Someone has to say enough. And if the market for zebras is so cutthroat that there is nobody that you trust to be honest and not sell them when you're trying to organize a breeding program, then that just supports that there is no sincerity in any claim that breeders are conservation oriented.
Next, you have no idea what I did with all my offspring nor the proceeds or even what I actually charged. You seem to have no idea about the facts surrounding these fish at all. I am not even sure I want to bother trying to educate you.
Don't patronize me. It's demeaning to both of us. I understand very well what the challenges are and I am well aware of the history of this fish in the hobby, as well as how the zebra has become endangered in the wild. You're not the only one that does his home work. The fact is, I don't really care what you did with what or how much you sold them for, unless you're getting them to as many hobbyists as you can to support a sincere breeding program. Not just to those who can afford insane prices. Have you? Again, read my last post that included an example of how to organize a breeding program.
1. Prior to Brazil instituting the "approved lists" there were no regulations regarding the removal of wild fish. There are more fw in Brazil than we can know. So the solution was to create a list of those fish allowed to be exported. it is often called the Positive List. Had this been done the other way, i.e. a list of fish not allowed to be exported, then any fish not yet discovered and described would have been legal to export.
I know about the approved export list. Do you really think it didn't affect cichlid hobbyists?
2. My original zebras were purchased as a proven breeding group in early 2006. The original owner had accumulated them over several years and grown them to spawning size. All of these fish came out of Brazil before they began having the approved lists.
Okay. That's cool.
3. I sold my fish for less than the going rate, I required buyers to take a minimum of 5 fish and a maximum of 8. Only folks wanting to breed them were the likely buyers and I also screened potential buyers to make sure they were able to keep and try to spawn them. I later upped the max. to 10 fish and if one bought ten, I added an extra fish to the box. Nobody else did this as far as I know.
Great. You sell your fish for less than going rate. You screen potential buyers to ensure they will be able to breed these fish. That's a good start for a breeding program. You had max and min quantities. Excellent. Did you drop the price so that the guy who may only be able to pay $30.00 or $50.00 could acquire them and help expand the captive population? What about the guy who is sincere about trying to breed them but may only be able to afford three?
4. I do not usually make a big deal about this because I do it for its value not for the credit. But take a look on Planetcatfish and see who the larger donors are to the site. Or check with the folks that host the bi-annual Catfish Convention and ask how much I spent on sponorships for the event. Check with the NEC for the same thing. You will find I have donated a lot of zebras for conservation causes. 100% of the proceeds are donated. You would also see that when the NEC recently offered to match donations by member clubs or their individual members to project Piaba up to a total of $1,000 in such donations. I sent them $250 so they got $500. How much did any of you reading this donate? I also sent $250 to a fish rescue operation last Dec.They rescue the big fish hobbyists who don't know any better get stuck with and have to give away of kill.
My sincere apologies. You have done more for the hobby than I gave you credit for. I have misjudged your contributions.
5. It is nice to opine about changing the conditions rather than removing the fish. But this clearly indicates you have no clue about how things work in Brazil. In order to dam the Xingu river the Brazilian authorities claimed there were very few species in the river. This simply was not the case. What there was not were a lot of identified species. So they used this argument to risk wiping them out. This does not compare to how they treated the native population that had lived along the rive for millenia. They were flooded out. The Brazilian authorities do not care about anything but the money the electricity from the damn provides. It is mostly for business not residential use. Change the conditions/ I guess you mean cancel the dam project? You need to wise up if you think that was a possibility.
I know very well how things work in Brazil. It's as bad as the U.S. when it comes to ignoring environmental impact in the name of development, which I'm using here as a catchall for construction, energy development, and other human related projects that further human needs to the detriment of the environment. You're not the only one who reads and keeps up on current events. I know the dam isn't going anywhere. I am well aware of how Brazil has ignored science to justify development. I know how they have treated and ignored the native people, and dismissed the protestations of both scientists and thee native population without a reasonable review. Litigation has gotten the native tribes nowhere. I know very well that the Brazilian government is only concerned about development and dismisses anything that impedes progress. The reality is that that isn't any different than any other country. I live in the heart of both energy production central and one of the wildest states in the U.S. There are species right here that are endangered, for the same reasons. I've watched the reclassification of unique species to subspecies, alteration to a paper on greater the prairie chicken to reflect lower population and habitat requirements, and half-assed solutions for to counter disrupted migration routes, all in the name of development. The U.S. government is no different. This is good information, but I'm not sure how it relates to anything I've said.
6. Next, you need to get educated about zebra reproduction. Firstly, they take a few years to reach sexual maturity. Next, they have very small spawns, 15 eggs is a lot. It takes some time to get them a safe selling size. Finally, they only spawn when they want to, not when keepers try to trigger them. I was extremely lucky. People way more skilled than I have failed. All of this combined with their being found in only one section of one river makes the price what it was/is.
I've read plenty on zebra pleco reproduction. I'm not ignorant of the complications. The reality is this isn't a valid excuse to not further distribution to more people at a reasonable price There are plenty of other species that are just as hard to breed and that produce broods that are that small. Granted most cichlids do mature at an earlier age, but when only 6 to 10 individuals in a brood mature and they only breed one or twice a year, it's not like the market is being flooded. Again, read my last post that included an example of how to organize a breeding program.
7. If one wants to buy zebras today they can easily find tank raised fish. How the heck do you think that is possible? The fish did not suddenly spring into existence in aquariums. The started out in the wild. So did all the fish any of us keep in our tanks.
Yeah. I know fish today are tank raised. But how much are those tank-raised fish? I'm okay with screening buyers to ensure that they'll breed the fish they get. I do the same thing with my cichlids. But are these tank-raised fish priced low enough that the guy or gal who makes $12.00 an hour and can only afford $200.00 for a breeding group of fish can buy five the minimum five your require? You know, I've never seen any mention of how much you charge for your fish. How much do you charge?
8. If you had bothered to watch Leandro's vid I had posted you might have more of a clue about what you are saying regarding these fish. You might realize that the blame for most of the issues you mention lies directly with the Brazilian authorities. Academics and professional fish folks tried to organize captive breeding in Brazil which would have avoided all of the isses and problem. they tried to show the diversity of species there actually were in the Xingu. But the government was stubborn. It is only in the most recent past that there are such operation now in Brazil. I am not sure they have gone beyond the research stage to being allowed to export the offspring.
Already discussed the Brazilian government and the flaws. I've seen at least one documentary on this subject, as well as reading one very comprehensive article in National Geographic. I know I've seen other documentaries that at least had a segment on the Xingu. And like I said, the Xingu isn't the only waterway suffering from (probably) irreversible damage in the name of development, whether it be a dam for hydroelectric production, pollution to poor water treatment practices or siltation due to agricultural run-off. There are other causes for this damage as well. We know how we got here; it can't be undone. Why are we lamenting of what is when we should be planning for what will be?
9. You would also know there are several major farming operations in Asia now producing zebras in large numbers. If you want to buy a cheap zebra all you have to do is spend about 45-50/fish and buy the minimum of 50 fish and you can resell them for whatever you want. We did this for less because we got 300+. We offered fish to folks registered for the NEC at $85/fish. Most shops do not spend well over $10k on a single species. You also might know that these days most zebras sold are tank/farm raised. Of course, if you import and then lose some, too bad it's your loss.
And? I do know all of this. How does this justify selling zebras for hundreds here in the U.S. versus getting the species into the hands of more people?
One more thing re the big farming operations. They claim they bought all their breeding stock before the fish were not illegal to remove from Brazil. I doubt this can be proved, so I take it with a grain of salt. In any case, they had to get many 100s of fish from the wild to set up an operation producing 1,000 fish/week when 15 or even 20 is the maximum number of fish per spawn and the males take about a month from egg laying to when they release free swimming fry. The math is simple 1,000/15 = 67 dads. This also means they needed at least 34 females for a total of 101 adults. Due to how the fish are caught they are not sexed at that time. males are easier to catch so collectors need a lot more than 101 fish to be safe. And this does not account for any losses or the fact that the fish do not spawn on demand. Farms need many 100s of zebras to have the kind of production they do.
And? Do you think cichlids are all that different? That breeding rare species is easy? That getting a pair is a given? That there aren't any risks or losses involved? That fish don't kill each other if you get your sexing wrong? In this respect, I empathize with you more than you realize, but quit justifying prices because of how "hard it is". It is a failure to get zebras into the hands of more hobbyists by making them affordable that I disagree with. None of what you point here justifies preventing the species from getting into the hands of more hobbyists to ensure survival. The biggest obstacle is the cost, preventing some talented people from acquiring the species. Breeders here in the U.S. could develop a breeding program that was friendly to getting the species in as many hands as possible for reasonable prices. That is conservation. And that doesn't include selling fish for hundreds of dollars.
10. If you had any clue instead of jumping on your high horse, you would have known much of the above. Of course you could not know how I sold anything or how I came by my fish. As far as I know most of mine were not illegally removed from Brazil. You would also know about CITES: " There is no way to prove any given fish was born in the wild or in a tank or on a farm after the fact.
Again, don't patronize me. I'm not as ignorant as you may like to believe, nor are a lot of folks on this site. The fact is, I've just expressed what many people think. And it appears you don't like it.
CITES (the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora) is an international agreement between governments. Its aim is to ensure that international trade in specimens of wild animals and plants does not threaten the survival of the species." CITES has something called the Appendix II List. Species listed in Appendix II cannot move between the signatory countries unless they are accompanied by a certificate of origin. This certifies the source of the animals and prevent illegal fish from being traded easily. And yes, to bring in those 300+ zebras we had such certification. This listing effectively put a damper on the illegal export of zebras from Brazil. year ago I could find several ways to buy illegal wild zebras had I wanted to do so, Today I would have to do a lot of work to find them, if I even could. But I can find all the zebras i might want tank raised. If I were willing to sell to some to you I could as mine have been spawning again. So, in a few months I will be selling zebras again.
I've kept CITES listed cichlids, I'm well aware of what it is, what says. I know what the regulations for importing and keeping CITES listed species are, at Levels I, II and III. But this is irrelevant to getting zebras into the hands of more people in the U.S. Again, don't patronize me.
Here is one last question to answer. It is too soon to know if many of the species unique to the Big Bend and below it will survive in the wild or not. According to Leandro and his colleagues, for zebras it is right on the edge. It is still very possible that the combination of the dam and the remaining illegal fish trade will cause the species numbers to reach the tipping point. So what do you think will have made more sense in the long run, not to remove any of the fish from the wild and have them end up extinct or to remove some, (best done in a controlled fashion) and to allow hobbyists and professional fish farmers to insure the species survived in aquariums across the globe?
If it's too soon, then how do you justify removing any fish from the river in the name of conservation? 300 fish is 3% of the 10,000 needed to ensure the species survives in the wild. How can you justify you're comment about getting as many fish out of the river as possible to help save the species if there is still hope?
Seriously? How can you honestly justify removing fish from the wild population if there is still hope for it's survival in the wild? The intent of conservation is to keep a species in it's natural habitat, not to pull out as many individuals as possible so that it survives in captivity alone. Removing animals from a wild population to save it in captivity should be close to the last step taken.
So I have two words for Wyite and those who chimed in with him and they are definitely not Happy Birthday.
Okay.
If you want to learn, have a read here https://e360.yale.edu/features/base...-can-hobbyists-save-rare-fish-from-extinction if you do you will read the below. I believe you kept Africans for some time?
I've actually been to Greg Sage's place. Erie is only 80 miles or so from Cheyenne. I bought a few livebearers, from him.
WYite
